Beyond the Job Hunt: Discovering Who You Are and What You Want - with David Petrovay

0:00 Have you ever chased after a bus, finally hopped on, only to realize that it was the wrong one? Suddenly you're out of breath, off course, and even further from where you want to go. That's what happens when we chase goals without really knowing ourselves or our destination. The truth is, building a meaningful career isn't about running faster. It's about knowing where you want to go. In this episode, career coach David Petrovey shares how clarity, confidence, and openness to opportunities can help you define that destination and catch the bus that's truly going your way.

0:40 Welcome to the show Mind Blind. I'm your host, Karen Chong, and I'll be diving into the minds of incredible people, each an expert in their very own way. Together, we'll uncover insights and share ideas so you can be inspired and empowered to navigate your own unique journey in life. Ready to get curious and discover what's possible? Let's blend in the very, very beginning of Mind Blend. I had an episode with Juan Silvera where we talked about how to get that job you want. But getting a job is a very, very small part of anyone's career.

1:23 So today I'm going to talk about exactly this topic with my guest, David Petrovay. Hi, David. Hi, Karen. Great to be with you today. Thank you for coming to Mind Blend. Welcome to the show. So before we begin, I'm sure people are interested in what does David do, Who is David? So can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and how you got to what you're doing today? So I'm currently in what we refer to as the fourth quarter of life. So you know how if you would break it up into 25 year segments, I'm in that 4th segment in my life.

2:03 And so obviously there's a long history there. Karen and I, I was born on the East Coast of the US. That's where I went to school. I earned 2° from the University of Pittsburgh. The first one was in psychology. Would make a lot of sense in the work that I do today. And then after that, there weren't a lot of choices. One of them was, well, you can either go back to school or you can go to Vietnam. Huh. OK. So it. Was just those two. That was about it, Karen, at that time. So for me, I was in that first group of people where they held the lottery to determine based on your birthday, if you would be eligible for the grant for the draft.

2:51 And I was #19 out of 366. So obviously I was at the top of the list. But luckily I'd had a knee injury that kept me out of the service and that allowed me to go directly into Graduate School. And in fact, when I was told you will not qualify to go into the Army, I called directly to the School of Education and said, OK, here's the situation. Accept me. And they did. And so I worked. I did a master's degree, working with the blind. OK, Education of the blind, when I got into that, I'll tell you in a little while.

3:29 Yeah, I'm very. Interested. And I did that for 34 years in various capacities across the country in schools for the blind. And I was, I was getting toward the end of that part of my career, I decided I want to go back and study career counseling. So with a generic counseling degree and my focus was on career and all the different areas that I sampled, that was the one that I enjoyed the most because people generally were not in crisis like they were in marriage counseling or individual counseling or family counseling.

4:04 So after a number of years of that, I decided, you know what, I want to pursue getting a doctorate APHD. So I that was at the University of Arizona in Tucson where the second masters was. And so I believe it or not, I think they were going to give me some type of a prize for the longest amount of time to complete a doctorate. It took me years to do it, but. How come? You know, I was working full time, I would go in and out of motivation and I'm sure a lot of your listeners could identify with that.

4:43 And when you're going to get that type of a degree, someone said you better be married to it. It's going to have it's insurance and it's outs now. I completed that in 2008 and my dissertation was on why would people choose to become teachers of the blind? My study and it was on career development, which is basically what I do now. And it was fascinating because I went into it just by chance. I know anyone, unlike most of the people that I had in my study. And I thought, oh, I could do this. And I did it.

5:19 So what brought me to the point where in 2005 I said, you know, I've done this for 34 years, so I think it's time for me to change direction. So I look back at my life, just like all of your listeners can do, and said, what did? And I asked myself, what did I enjoy most about what I did? And it was the career piece of it. So that's where I went back and became certified as a career counselor and coach. And I've been doing it for over 25 years. Totally. OK, so you so you looked back at all the education for the blind that you did and so tell us a little bit more about what that included in the education for the blind.

6:06 What do you what did you teach them on? So when I first started, my first class was multiply impaired students. So they weren't just blind, they had cognitive issues, other issues in their lives. And that was a trial by fire because my very first class, I had 13 students, youngest was 9 and the oldest was 18, quite age range. And so I had to learn to either sink or swim with all of them. And then I moved into just what they would refer to as vanilla blind children. That was all that they were dealing with, with just their blindness.

6:43 And Aaron, I love that because I them regular subject matter just like they would have in a public school, all adapted for the blind. So I'd put their materials into Braille because I had some Braille, and it was just so much fun, the various things that I was able to communicate with them. And then after I was in Pennsylvania doing that for seven years as a classroom teacher, I moved to Arizona and started out as a classroom teacher there and then moved into career development, my career development specialist.

7:23 So for eight years, I worked with high school students on their job skills. Yeah. So identifying what they might want to do after they finished school and then how to go about applying for a job, how to interview, how to write a resume. And it was interesting because when they were older, beyond all of this, people would interview them and say you've been coached in how to do this, you're so good. 9th graders that I was teaching it to. That was another area where I felt very successful in them out.

7:59 And then after 22 years in Arizona, I went over to California and their school for five years in more of an administrative position. So I was able to do a little bit of everything. Looking back over it, what did I love most? It was the career development. What was the most gratifying besides your students telling you, Oh, people knew that I was coach, what was what did you enjoy the most? Well, it's actually what I'm enjoying now because I'm still in touch with those students from Arizona. They're now in their early 50s and they're telling me how much their education with me meant to them in terms of who they are as adults now.

8:47 Especially the young women, because when they arrived in the classroom they were very shy. And. Assertive. And then later on the mothers would say to me, what did you do to my daughter? She's up for herself and I remember one time we were having a party and one of the mothers showed up and the student at the time, who was about 10, said, mother, this is our party. You weren't invited. Oh, the wrong audience, but the right mentality. Oh yes, yes. So again, it was them learning to be assertive and they still on.

9:26 Yes. And I could imagine maybe back 30 years ago, being assertive as a woman was probably one of the biggest challenges when it comes to looking for a job or interview for a female, right? That's right. How are the male and the female students different back then? I think you just nailed it that the the male students, OK were it was a form of entitlement where, you know, they were given more about a carte blanche in terms of moving forward with the work that they did, found it easier to find work.

10:08 The females, not as much. I mean, a number of them did go on to get work and some of them are still struggling with that because their blindness is seen as an obstacle. So their job is to educate whoever it is that is interviewing them in terms of here's what I can do, here are the skills that I have. And with the the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, as long as you can perform the essential functions of a job, you need to be seriously considered an apple. Yeah, yeah. So what about what did you enjoy the most seeing in your male students?

10:53 They're always gratifying. You know, again, it's where they are today and I see them on Facebook and I see them voicing their positions in terms their beliefs. They are so strong and articulate, Karen. It's just amazing. And I'm, I tell them how proud I am of the people that they've become. Doesn't matter what their position is. It's just the fact that they're willing to speak up to support it and defend it. Yes. So not to make you give out your secrets, but how do you coach them? What aspect of them as a person do you focus on to tease that out so they can represent themselves the way you would encourage them to?

11:47 And I think the common denominator there is self-confidence, really knowing who you are and being willing to share that. There might be push back, but if you truly believe what you bring to a situation that you can share that, that is what will make a difference. And it's also what I find in my regular clients, the same thing. It's like they come, and what's hurting most for them is their self-confidence. OK. And what makes you think that, oh, this person needs to work on their self-confidence when they first come to you, for example?

12:24 It's pretty obvious. It's how they talk about themselves, the doubt that they bring about being hired or being employable that well, no one is going to hire me because and you know, it could be my age, it could be the fact that I'm a female in a male dominated industry, those kinds of things. So really it's focusing on their strengths and their talents, what they bring to whatever that setting is. OK, I remember a long time ago, it was, this was at least 10 years ago, I had sort of more like a recruitment, like a recruiting agent headhunter person.

13:08 And then I had a session with her because I think she was moving into career counselling. And I vaguely remember she asked me a bunch of questions and then we put all these bubbles onto this giant white paper on the wall. But then I didn't really see how I can continue, like, OK, what are we getting out of this session and how is that going to help me? So I struggled with it a little bit back then. If for someone who's not familiar with career coaching, how would you describe it to them? Well, there are actually 2 aspects to this.

13:42 One is career counseling and the other one is career coaching. So the clients that I have in each of those lanes are very different in terms of what they bring to a session. So career counseling is directed toward individuals who say I'm no longer employed, I want to change the type of work that I do, but I'm not sure what it is. So in counseling, I help them identify what that path might look like for them. So that would be the career counseling. And then of course, I will help them with redoing their resume to reflect that practicing the interview, career coaching, these people are all working.

14:23 They're very successful in the work that they do. They're dealing with situations that are real time situations. And they say, you know, I might be having this situation with a Co worker or I coach them in how I can address that so that they OK, so that would be the difference in the 2. So I think the other thing is with career counseling, that's rather short term. So they'll come to me and say, well, this is my goal. I want to get this type of a job and within this amount of time. So it's very time structured.

15:00 And so we focus on that. And once they achieve it, they say, thank you so much. It's been great working with you. I may never see them again. Whereas with coaching some of these clients I've had for four or five years. So they keep coming back because obviously they keep dealing with situations in the workplace where they say I need some support here. I'm not sure exactly what direction to go in terms of this. So we look with my psychology background and the counselling, we look at the types of personalities they might be dealing with and the most effective ways to address that.

15:40 So career counselling is very much targeted at getting a job, but coaching is not just finding jobs. No one's about finding jobs. The other one is keeping a job OK once you have. It I see. What about mentor? How is that different from mentoring? So mentoring and in fact I've, I've written a book and I include a section on mentoring, whereas coaching and counseling are very targeted. So as I said, there's a goal and it's time limited, whereas once you've identified who that mentor might be, that relationship could continue for years.

16:26 So the career counseling in coaching are again, they're all about a short term situation and they're more formal in nature in terms of how we structure it. Whereas with enter, once you've identified who that person is, you might say, well, we're going to meet once a month for lunch. I'm going to give you an update on what's happening in work and then get your feedback based upon your experience as to what I might do to address this. So they're both focused on behavioral changes, OK. And so what's going to work for that individual?

17:09 Just it's delivered by a very different type of person. So as a coach, I don't have to be, let's say, if I'm working with an engineer, I don't have to have an engineering degree. But if I'm looking for a mentor, I probably want to have someone with the same experience in the industry that I'm in. I got it now. Yeah. I because I hear say football coaches, sports coaches, formerly they were also players themselves, but I guess sports are very different from behavioral. Yes, and it that really is coaching when you talk about developing a skill.

17:48 Let's say you're a golfer and you want to improve your skill as a golf. That would be more under the auspices of a coach rather than a mentor. A mentor might help you if you wanted to become a professional golfer. In. Terms of what would that path or what could that path look like and how could I get there? I see. Yes. And you mentioned goals in both the counseling and the career coaching. You're the people who come to you. What if someone has no goal? They don't know what their goals are, or what should my goal be?

18:24 How do you tackle that? Well, they do have a goal. In fact, it's one that I just talked about on LinkedIn two weeks ago. Their goal is to achieve clarity.

18:37 Are they clear in what it is that they want to do? And it's my job as a career counselor to give them that direction for clarity. So there are all kinds of tools that we can use to do that is simply. So tell me about what you enjoy doing as a child, because many times the work that we do today is an expression of what we enjoy doing as children. Yeah. So you know, what was, what was fun for you to do? Because I really see work as not drudgery, but there's an enjoyment and sense of fulfillment very similar to what would happen when you played.

19:17 Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, getting that information from them, I will say things like when you go to a bookstore and you go to the magazine rack, what is the first magazine that you pick up? Yeah. Yeah, that tells you a lot. Now it not be exactly what they're choosing to do, Karen. It will be an aspect of that. Yeah. And now I'm trying to think of what I picked when I go to Mac, when when I go to a bookstore, think beautiful pictures, food, like traveling. And I do like traveling. But that's a very, very good question.

19:57 Yes, yeah. So one thing we talked about but we didn't go into is how did you choose to go into education for the blind? You were going to come back to it. Oh yes. So for me, what happened was as I was nearing the end of my bachelor's degree, I received a letter from the school of actually, it was special education in the School of Education, and they were offering fellowships. So oh, someone's going to pay for me to go to. How nice. So what I did was I made an appointment to go to the School of Education Special Ed and I interviewed the head of every specialty area.

20:39 OK. Very last one was working with the blind. And all I said at the end of that after comparing it to all the others, was I could do that and had no experience at all with anyone who was blind. And I thought, well, all right, let's see what happens. And then I was accepted into that graduate program. Back then, they were so hurting for teachers. I finished a master's degree. I started it in September. In less than a year, I had a master's degree. And, and so then I went right into a classroom as a result of that.

21:18 So when I was doing my student teaching, I was approached by the principal who said to me, I don't know what your plan is after you finish your degree, but I'd like for you to consider working here, which was the first school for the blind that I was in for seven years. And so I had the background for it again, you know, a lot of it was trial and error. And I think that that's one thing that people really need to give themselves the gift of is just lack, you know, no self judgement. You're going to go into a job, it's going to be brand new for you.

21:53 Give yourself the time that you need to learn it. And you know, often times they'll say, well, you have a probationary period of 90 days. Typically, you can learn many work tasks within those 90 days. When you go into education, you need a whole year because what you do at the beginning of the school year is very different than how you end it. You. Have to take that into consideration. So that was, you know what, what got me into it, and that was also the gist of the doctoral dissertation that I wrote, was that people choose to become teachers of the blind.

22:31 So a lot of it is very much like you happen to have come across these different opportunities. And that's life, Karen, all about opportunity and taking advantage of it when it shows up, it's. You. Know it's like you go to a dinner where there are all these foods that you may have never tasted. Some of them you're going to like and they're going to work for you in terms of, oh, I'll, I'd do that again. Others were OK, I tried it once. No, I don't do that again. So I think really life is about taking advantage of the opportunities in front of you and just being open to whatever they might be.

23:16 Just like with doing podcasts. I mean, if 10 years ago you told me I'd be doing what I'm doing right at this very moment, I would have had no idea what they were talking about nor, well, how would you ever do it 'cause the only people I could do it with were would be people I'm sitting right next to. We're not even in the same country. No, at least we're in the same hemisphere, Western Hemisphere. And as I said a year ago at this time, I was heading to England, to London. So I've been to London several times.

23:52 So I'm very familiar with that country. And again, it's opportunity. Yeah, I agree with that 100%. It's being open minded because if you are not, you will not see the opportunities, no. Yeah. And as I said, what it what's the saying about your mind? Is like a parachute. It only works when it's open. I have not heard that. I've just read a book about what's it? It's career related book. It's called What's the Color of your Parachute? What color is that parachute? Yes. Yeah, it's like a 15 year old book by now.

24:28 Well. Actually they do an upgrade every year. Or they used to. Or the Richard Bowles who wrote the original 1 before he died and I think his son took over. But you know, I have ones from 1984 or in 1987, pretty similar, but of course they're going to change based upon what's happening in the world of work. Yeah, yeah. If anyone hasn't read that book, highly recommend it. But I think it helped me gain clarity and I think it it has something practical like try to switch careers. Not like if you think of it as a quadrant, try not to go diagonal, but try to go to the one next to your what your current field is.

25:08 It'll be a little easier. So I'm sure our listeners love love practical advice. That's what I'm all about, is practical. So for someone who may not even know that they are stuck or sometimes you don't realize it's something happened and then you think what, what have I done all my life? Like I have been doing this for 20 years. But usually that's what happened when you hit like certain age, like midlife crisis, quarter life crisis. How could, what would you encourage people to do so that they, they, they don't get to a point where it's too late, but like, what can they start doing to make sure they're pursuing the right thing at the right moment?

25:55 Well, you know, you were talking about using the word crisis. I think they're just developmental stages. And what I've been hearing lately is that people either experience A7 year cycle and re evaluate or 10 year cycle. And so I've been looking at my past and I thought, oh, I'm actually a 10 year cycle person. If I look at my age, you know where I was when, you know, OK, so I was born in 48. Where was I in 58? Where was I in 68? OK, so you know, and how old was I at that time? So these were decade birthdays.

26:37 And when I look back at them, Karen, I think, Oh my gosh, there was a major shift at that time. And you just acknowledge that and say, OK, if this is a natural progression developmentally, when I reach that seven-year or that 10 year cycle, it's time for me to re evaluate what I'm doing. And I like your approach to I'll do something that's next door to it. So you rarely will get someone who says, well, you know, for all these years, I've been an auto mechanic. So I think now I'm going to be doing brain surgery.

27:15 OK, Well, there'll be some aspects, you know, manual dexterity that will be important. It's not likely that they're going to make that type of shift. So for me, being an educator and a teacher and now doing the work that I am now, I do webinars which are about teaching. It's different. So it's a next door occupation. I like that. Yeah. Is there any psychology rationale for the seven-year and 10 year like shifts? No, sometimes they say that it's based upon brain physiological development because they'll say, for instance, we talk about being 21 and being an adult.

27:57 Well, that would be a seven-year cycle. And the interesting thing is I used to say, I don't know if I agree that at 21 you're an adult. For me, the number that kept sticking in my brain was 25. Now. Know that anatomically the brain is not fully developed, that prefrontal cortex is not fully developed until 25. But I also noticed that, you know, just talking to clients where they might fit in with that one year cycle, 10 year cycle. I think it's good to just when you reach one of those milestones, re evaluate what is it that I'm doing in life?

28:38 Is it bringing me the satisfaction that I really want to have? Or do I need to look at doing something else and stay in the same field, which is what I did, and then just do very, very different types of jobs within that field. So I was the vice principal for a number of years, OK, same field, doing a very different type of work. And then what you learn from that? So evaluate, look back and see what you enjoyed the most as a person, what you enjoyed as a kid, and what you're doing right now and sort of just finding out how far those are, right?

29:19 That's right. And I'll tell you what, I have found a great tool. It's it's not really giving away a secret. It's a tool that I'm finding with clients who don't have that clarity. I'll get to them. OK. What is it that you're looking for in a job? And they'll, they'll say, well, I want to work with my hands. I want to be indoors and outdoors. I want to have some level of responsibility for supervision. So, so we take all of those parameters, we feed them into AI. Yeah, now we got an assistant. Yes, so we say OK, what would a job be like if it included these parameters?

30:00 You list as many as you want. AI will do an incredible job of identifying at least five jobs that you could consider. I just with a client and he was really lacking clarity and I was like a little, you know, a, a, a spot of inspiration for me. I said, let's put it into AI and see what it says. I, I could do that. Oh, that would be fun to do. And so I think that it's using tools that are out there. And I know many people are frightened by something like AI. Remember, it's a tool. Let it for you. Yes, yeah, it's the oven, not the chef.

30:43 Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So what would? What's your most successful case? Oh, I've so many. There's a a woman that I've been working with and she's in her 30s now. And again, we've been working together for probably five years. And I remember when we first began what herself confidence was like. And it was not unusual to have a session where she cried because it was off beliefs that she didn't think that she was good enough. And so we just kept chipping away at that. And now the person that I see when we meet, we meet on a monthly basis, she's not a different person, she's more involved.

31:32 I would say would be a better way to describe that. It's just so exciting to hear her talk about what she's going to do next. And I'm being unafraid to try things. So I think that's probably my biggest success. And of course, everyone who's found a job that they find fulfilment in, satisfaction, joy, those are all successes too. Yeah, that's so meaningful. And just think about the impact that you have made on her life. And it's probably doesn't just apply to jobs, It probably applies to her life, to how she carries herself in front of friends, families, like people who she meet for the first time or in public.

32:19 Yeah, and that's where the self-confidence shows up, Karen. Yeah, just how they interact with people on a day-to-day basis, they're sure of who they are. Yeah. So Speaking of that, you've probably also heard of this phenomenon. Female won't apply to a job if they don't fit every requirement. What advice would you have when it comes to picking what jobs you apply for? Because it's a fine line. It's a fine line not applying because you don't fit 100% and applying but you're not going to do well at all.

32:51 Well, you must have read this thing. Research study that I did or recently read was men will maybe only fit 80% and they'll go for it, whereas women will look at it and say, well, unless I can do it all, then I'm not going to bother applying. And I mean, when you look at that, you think about the disservice it does in terms of what women can bring to a work setting. And in fact, I once was, I have actually applied for a job as a career counselor at Stanford University. And I read their job description and I spoke to the person and said, is there anyone on the planet who can do everything in this job description and this?

33:36 No, you know, you can do probably 7080% of it. Mostly what's at the top of the job description. Seriously consider you. OK, So I thought, oh, but that's really good to know. You don't fit into everything. You do go through training and that's always something to ask during an interview, the training that is provided once you're in the position, because they're all going to have things that they do that are unique to that specific setting. So yeah, with with women, I would say look at what it is that they're asking for.

34:15 And I always teach people how to do something called AT Chart and AT Chart is simply a letter T. Are you familiar with AT Chart? I feel like I have seen it but not all our listeners have so please explain. Yeah, you put the job title at the top and on the left side of the T you write what they want. You go through the job description and all the requirements. OK. Then on the right, you put what I have, OK, and then you look at the match, let's say they want five years experience. Well, I have seven years experience that match and all the way through and just see how close you are.

34:53 Now. In some cases, it could be something that you've done that's similar that would qualify and you haven't given yourself credit for that. Give yourself credit for it. And then that's what you put onto your resume in your interview. No, while I haven't done that specifically, let me tell you about what I have done that is very similar. So that if I can learn that, I can learn this. Yeah, I think with with women, they're much more likely to sell themselves short. And yet women are so talented because working in education the majority of my Co workers were women.

35:33 Yeah, I can imagine. You know what they would do when we were in a large meeting? Lean over to me when the speaker was talking about a specific topic and say ask them this question. Yeah. That great question you ask it. Yeah, I don't take credit for what you're thinking. And it was very hard for them to do. And these were women who eventually went on to get PhDs. Yeah. Look, it's, it's about programming. Women's programming, yes. That's many, many years, decades of just mental like all these propaganda messaging like you're not good enough from our parents, even though that would take some time, but at least I'm seeing a lot of us are becoming a lot more confident we have a seat at the table.

36:20 So, but unfortunately, the market is not doing so great worldwide. So there's still a lot of people who might have been just laid off. I know you wrote about that, or just haven't been able to find jobs even after a year, year and a half, two years and they're losing confidence. Do you have any advice on what they can do to like evaluate what they're doing or keep the momentum, just not lose confidence? So I think again, it goes back to what are my strikes, what are my skills, what are my talents, Where is the best place for me to be using these and then finding where those there we go opportunities and then using your network.

37:06 I thought that people use their networks as much as they could, Karen, because what we find is that many times about 80% of jobs are found through a network. It's called the hidden job market. I can't agree with that more. Yeah. So build that network. Now, it doesn't mean that you run around to people and say, hey, get me a job. That's a bit of a challenge. But when someone asks you, especially in this country, what do you do for a living and you're unemployed, there's an embarrassment and shame attached to that, even though you probably had nothing to do with that decision to have the unemployed unless you quit your job because it was toxic or, you know, other reason.

37:56 But it's really about saying, well, right now I'm between jobs, yeah, See if that can open up a dialogue because people know people. Yeah, and I also just wrote about it. Even so, it's about how when I'm finding guests for my podcast, very similar to companies looking for people, one of them is network. Because you don't know if this will become a connection down the road. You won't get a job tomorrow just by networking. But you never know. Like expanding your network never hurts and opportunities may come along.

38:36 That's right, they do. And so you, as you say, you just remain open to that. And you never know who you're going to be talking to. Or they say, well, I don't do that work, but a friend of mine does. Would you like to talk to them? Sure. And the other thing is dealing with rejection. I mean, let's face it, there's going to be rejection in this. Hey, when I sign up to do podcasts, do you think everyone that I replied to has me on their show? No, Yeah, well, that's their choice as the podcaster, and for whatever reason I may not be the type of guest they're looking for.

39:15 I'm OK with that. Yeah. And I would like to tell my friends who are getting deflated by rejections, you only need one. Yes. So it's, you know, you don't need everyone to say yes, you just need one. And that works across the board, Karen. It's people who are looking to find a partner. I'll never find someone. I said, wait a minute. You know, there are 8 billion people on the planet. Yeah. How many of you want to be married to? Yeah. Oh, just one. I said, guess what? The odds are in your favor then.

39:51 And it's like anything else. The odds are in your favor. Don't worry about the nose. Yes, will come eventually and it'll be the right one. And even if you get a, an acceptance, you go into the job and you may find out, oh, this is not a match for me. That really doing your homework about the culture. Because a lot of times when people are looking to be hired, that's another area that they don't educate themselves on. It's like, what's the culture that I fit best into? And so it's looking at, OK, I want something that's collegial or I want a job where I'm always told exactly what to do.

40:36 I really don't have to think for myself and that's OK. Then don't go into a job where they where they're expecting you to do independent thinking. Yeah, I found out what I won't enjoy as I'm doing the interviews. So I remember I used to interview for all kinds of business fields and then as the year progresses, I just trim them down. And now that's why I'm doing what I'm doing because all the other ones, I did not enjoy that environment or the personalities. So it's like you said, reflect, like ask yourself.

41:12 Yep, And the more you, you know, this goes back, wow, centuries, if not millennia, which is know yourself. That's where you begin anything in life. We don't spend enough time knowing ourselves. I, I spent more time in school with that. Just who am I in all areas of my life, not just where I, you know, where I work or what I do for work, but just in what I bring to the table. Yeah. What are your strengths? That's right. So let's see how well you know yourself, David. All right, so I'm going to play a quick round of rapid fire questions.

41:53 So don't think too much. Just got reaction. What's a small habit that made a huge difference in your career success? Oh, I definitely think it was being open to opportunity. I think once I did that, Karen, the world opened up for me in in just so many aspects of life, not just work, but I like you. We talked about this. I love to travel. And so I have a list of all the places that I want to go to. I wanted to go to Russia, just like Petersburg, but we had a trip planned to go to Alaska, OK, And we were going with a couple who was celebrating their 50th anniversary.

42:40 She couldn't get her passport because of a technicality. Oh, OK, yeah. And I said, well, we'll still go. Well, we get a call from the travel agent saying, you know what, Alaska's hot ticket item. Would you be willing to give up your travels to Alaska to go to the Baltic, which includes Russia and Saint Petersburg? Wow. So we said of course, and not only that they flew us over first class. Wow, OK. We go to Saint Petersburg and they offer two excursions. One of them is to go to the Hermitage, which was on my list of places to go to, and you could go during the day where there were thousands of other tourists.

43:25 Or you could go for an evening excursion in which a Symphony would do a private concert for you. And then the group from the ship would be broken up into groups of 10 and on a private tour of the Hermitage to see artwork. Wow. Now there is being open to opportunity. I I know. Oh, no, no. We want to go to, you know, Alaska. That's it. Yeah, yeah. But Alaska was never on my wish list. The Hermitage was wow. I mean it. It's just I could tell so many stories about how just being open to opportunity has made an incredible difference in my life.

44:10 And another thing that I can't agree more on. OK, next one. Worst career advice you have heard? Oh that's easy. Someone who was a so-called specialist, OK, who said when you go into an interview make it sound like you're the perfect person for that position, whether it is a match for you or not. Just be whatever they want you to be. I think, OK, worst career advice. And this was someone who was supposedly well known in the field and I thought, oh, I could see where that would take you. Yeah, but certain certain fields may require that personality.

44:59 OK, one thing you would never say in a job interview. When they ask you tell me about a, a weakness that you have, I'm a perfectionist. No, that is, that's a well. No, yeah. That is A and so that'll win the hot water every time. Actually, what we say is I'm an imperfectionist. Yeah, OK. I mean, I would an interview, but it's the truth. OK. Focus on the fact that we are imperfect now. What we do then is we come up with compensation or how we deal with it. So if I'm not good at something, well, you know, I hire someone who is good at it.

45:43 So if if I have a business of my own and I'm not good in accounting, guess what? I'll hire an accountant to do that. It's great answer, great advice. If you had ten extra hours a week, how would you use them? And then the first thought that crossed my mind, Karen, was just living just because one, one of the lessons that I've learned in life is how to live in the moment. For instance, if I was travelling, you know, I'd, I'd build more travel time into what? Because next month I'm on my way to Italy and France.

46:22 For real. For real. OK. And there's these that I've been to before. Gee, if I had, for instance, 10 more hours a week in Paris, oh, I could Add all kinds of activities that would fill that with working. The other thing that I do besides speaking like this and doing career counseling is I write. And that was another area where I was told when I was younger, you'll never be a writer. You you really have bad writing skills. And I thought published 3 books and I've got two more on the way. So I'd probably spend more time devoting myself to writing.

47:03 I had that. So that what I enjoy in life I would just add to, that's all. Yeah. Like I relate to that. I would do those things, but better or more in depth, not necessarily just adding more things. What's the point of doing 10 million things if you only did the surface right? Right. OK last one, what's a completely non career related skill you wish you had? Being able to address any problems I have on the computer. I am not a computer savvy person, so we're talking about finding people who are my next door neighbor.

47:50 Anytime I have a problem my computer, I say hey Bob, you need to come over. I said in my next life I'm going to come back as a computer programmer. I understand this better. I, I just, with my personality type, I'm just not a high tech person. I can use things, but you know, my computer stops working. What do I do? I call my neighbor. Yes, find the people around you who are better than you at the things you're not so good at. And that's your network, OK? Yeah, yeah. It's the network of people who know how to do what you don't know how to do.

48:29 Exactly. Yes, not everyone has to do everything and be perfect at it, but that's life, right? That's right. We're all not all Renaissance people. There are a few of them like that, like Thomas Jefferson, he was one. But they're few and far between, and they're probably one in a billion that have that ability, right? More than a billion. Yeah. Well, it was very, very nice talking to you, David. It reinforces certain things that I know, but it opened up a lot more areas of career that I haven't thought about, and I'm sure our listeners would agree with that.

49:06 And in along with those, Karen, I do have a book that is called Out of Work Not Out of Worth navigating the emotional side of job loss. So it talks about many of the topics that we discussed, like the first one is huge, that chapter, self-confidence. Yeah, yeah. And it's something that you have to not lose it, otherwise yourself will crumble. It does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for being on mine, Bland. I really enjoyed talking to you, David. Likewise, Karen. It's like we've known each other forever.

49:40 I know, and it felt like I also had a coaching session with you, too. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're quite welcome, have a great day.

49:54 Thanks for listening to this episode of Mind One. If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to follow and share it with anyone who needs to hear it. And let's keep the conversation going. Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment. Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's continue to blend our minds and discover what's possible.