Peeling back the Label: Finding Talent where others won’t look - with Jacob Hill

0:00 Remember your suitcase that came back from a trip covered in

0:02 scuffs? Looks worn sure, but it still

0:05 carries everything you need reliably.

0:08 With people we often do the opposite. 1 mark in their pass

0:12 and door slammed shut. My guest today, Jacob Hill, know

0:16 this first hand. After prison he didn't just

0:19 rebuild his life, he built a way for thousands of others to do

0:23 the same in the UK. So what happens when we go pass

0:26 a label and see the whole person?

0:28 Let's find out. Welcome to the show Mind Blend.

0:35 I'm your host, Karen Chong, and I'll be diving into the minds of

0:38 incredible people, each an expert in their very own way.

0:43 Together, we'll uncover insights and share ideas so you can be

0:46 inspired and empowered to navigate your own unique journey

0:49 in life. Ready to get curious and

0:52 discover what's possible? Let's blend.

0:59 All right, so today in the studio with me, Air Quote Studio

1:04 is Jacob Hill. Hi, Karen, thanks for having me

1:07 on the show in the studio, the air studio.

1:11 Yeah. So because he's physically in

1:15 Venice today, but he's all over the place.

1:17 He has been all over the place and we'll find out why.

1:22 So Jacob, as I know, it's a prominent entrepreneur, you're

1:27 also a LinkedIn top voice advocate for specifically social

1:31 value and the context of supporting individuals with

1:35 criminal records. Absolutely right.

1:37 And you're currently the founder of an organization called Off

1:41 Point. And that's not the only thing

1:44 you've started. And we'll talk about that a

1:45 little bit more. Amazing.

1:47 I can't wait all. Right.

1:48 So I want to hear from you, your journey that ultimately LED you

1:53 to start off point. OK, so of Ploys, an organization

1:59 that mentors people with criminal convictions, we on one

2:03 side support those at risk of offending to access better

2:07 opportunities in life and, and, and, and build on a positive

2:11 future. And on the other hand, we work

2:13 with employers to support them to employ that cohort.

2:16 And this isn't the type of job you just you always aspire to do

2:22 or I think it's the type of thing you fall into sometimes,

2:25 but maybe that's because it's non profit.

2:27 It's the social sector. And I find that with a lot of

2:31 people who run social organizations, there tends to be

2:34 a personal link to the mission or to the work they're doing,

2:37 especially if they're the founder.

2:39 And I, what led me there was my my own journey through

2:44 university, the son of two police officers, having

2:47 everything I ever wanted in life, being, you know,

2:50 externally very successful from a, a camping business.

2:53 Now, I know camping doesn't excite probably many people.

2:56 I don't know how many people listen to this podcast, get

2:59 excited about it. It certainly didn't excite

3:01 enough people for my business to be successful.

3:04 And that camping business ultimately failed and I made

3:07 stupid and regretful choices that landed me a prison sentence

3:11 related to drugs and I was sentenced to 28 months and

3:15 started off in armed prison. But this, it's one of the second

3:20 highest for suicides in the UKA really tough Victorian old age

3:25 prison falling apart. And it was whilst in prison that

3:28 I came up with the idea to start off Ploy and I'd happily answer

3:31 any questions about that. I want to dig into this, the

3:36 whole experience a little bit more.

3:39 So when you first know that you were going to prison, do you

3:43 remember what went through your mind?

3:45 There was like one element where I was first arrested and that

3:50 was the biggest wake up call I've had him in my entire life.

3:53 I, I was in this not dream state, but this completely

3:59 different reality where I was, you know, watching Breaking Bad

4:03 and all these films and thinking that this isn't all, you know,

4:06 this is the route I could go down.

4:07 This is what I could do and I could make loads of money and I

4:10 can pay back my debts and I can actually be successful at

4:13 something because I'm a being a failure at everything else.

4:16 This is what I was thinking. And then being arrested, that

4:19 was like the first moment, like, oh heck, my parents are going to

4:22 find out. I'm going to lose my business

4:26 completely. I'm going to embarrass a lot of

4:29 prominent figures and people who've believed in and invested

4:31 in me. I've thrown away all this

4:34 goodwill and support I've built up over these few years.

4:39 And so that for me was like the first moment of fear, thinking

4:43 what what is going to, what is going to happen.

4:47 And then you start to think what could have happened.

4:49 So the the could have happened could have been OK, I could have

4:51 been shot or killed or or overdosed or when I was using in

4:55 all of in all of this experience.

4:58 And then you finally get to the sentencing when you find out

5:00 you're going to prison and it's 11 months.

5:04 It took eleven months for the court cases because of the

5:06 delays in the courts and etcetera, etcetera.

5:09 And those 11 months were worse for me than the 9 1/2 months I

5:15 ultimately did in prison because I had no idea of what prison was

5:18 going to be like. So I painted the absolute worst

5:21 picture expecting being attacked in the showers, expecting being

5:25 beaten up every day, all of this, the 11 months of anxiety

5:30 and fear and people will listen to this and say great, that's

5:33 what you deserve. Someone I imagine as well.

5:36 But the anxiety and fear of of going to prison for me was much

5:41 worse than the prison experience.

5:42 But it doesn't mean it was a good prison experience.

5:44 At the point of sentencing there was just relief that there was

5:47 at least an end or at least an end day to point this would all

5:51 be over because I didn't know if I was going to be let out of the

5:54 courts that day or be given a nine year prison sentence.

5:58 So to land at 2 and a bit years, almost three, that was.

6:02 It was a relief to at least know that it was going to be over

6:04 soon. Yeah, it must have been torture,

6:08 the 11 months. We're our own worst enemies.

6:10 We think of our imaginations. There's we've been brought up to

6:15 we, we are genetically wired to be scared of the dark, to

6:21 understand, you know, there's monsters and predators in there

6:23 and don't go near it. The dark is, is an uncertain

6:27 future for for some people. And that can scare the heck out

6:30 of people, not just those facing a prison sentence, but those

6:33 with uncertainty in their life anyway.

6:36 Yeah. So I'm sure you didn't have the

6:39 idea of I'm going to start awfully.

6:42 The day you entered so did. Did you remember how it sort of

6:47 manifested? It was in the sewing machine

6:50 workshop. So my job was to sew together

6:52 200 different 200 pairs of boxer shorts every day for the prison

6:56 estate. And I remember my, my line

7:00 manager, a guy called Ralph. And Ralph was think in a prison,

7:06 people don't care. And we were sewing together

7:09 these 200 boxer shots and we're a team of five.

7:13 And we'd get qualifications with it.

7:14 Yes. And I was doing the hems and

7:16 then I'd move to another bit and the overlocking machine.

7:19 And it was really exciting to see progression.

7:22 And our line manager between the four or five was, was, was

7:25 Ralph. And they were people who were,

7:28 and Ralph was looking at every single pair of boxer shot.

7:31 He only had to do a 20% audit, but he was doing a 100% audit on

7:35 every pair and he was snipping the fine threads off.

7:37 He had time. You have time in prison.

7:40 And I was like, Ralph, why? Why are you doing that?

7:41 You have to only check one in five.

7:43 Why are you checking 100%? And he went, first of all, I've

7:46 got all the time in the world. Second of all, we are judged as

7:51 a team on the quality, production and output here.

7:53 So everyone of you plays a part in all of this.

7:56 And third of all, on the first night someone gets in prison,

8:00 they might have been living rough on the streets.

8:01 They might have, you know, messed their pants in in the

8:05 fear of the situation. They could have whatever reason

8:07 he says, and this might be the first dignified item they get

8:11 that's theirs in prison. That's neat.

8:12 That's and it just blew me away. Did this because Ralph before I

8:16 went to prison would have been someone that I looked down upon

8:18 someone that I thought that was a bit rough for someone that was

8:21 a drug user and all. And in prison he was a shining

8:25 example. He was someone who we would all

8:27 employ. He was someone who would have

8:29 absolutely, why wouldn't you want someone like Ralph?

8:32 And prison for him was a way that he was clean.

8:35 He was had structure, he had artery, had responsibility, he

8:38 had root. He had all of this.

8:41 And it's just like, for me, I was like if I could just show

8:44 employers people like Ralph, I think our perception of what a

8:47 person with a criminal conviction would change his

8:49 offence hasn't come into this discussion or conversation.

8:52 His work ethic, his drive, his determination, his care for your

8:55 product has. And I want to show more

8:58 employers people like Ralph. And since starting we've

9:01 supported over 4000 people with criminal convictions.

9:04 So for me, it's absolutely amazing that the idea came from

9:07 a sewing machine workshop in a prison and has now gone on to

9:10 support many more people as a result of it.

9:12 Yeah, that's very noble of him. Just because he has had a

9:16 conviction, just because he's in prison, doesn't mean he's

9:19 rubbish, no. Yeah, of course, but neither

9:22 anyone else that comes in. He has no idea who those boxer

9:26 shorts are going to. He does understand the

9:28 experience of how daunting the first night could be regardless

9:31 of who you are. And he's looking beyond

9:35 whoever's going to use it, just more about that there's an

9:37 individual that that that might. He was mission driven on a pair

9:41 of boxer shots. And that's what I love.

9:42 Like, I just think it's like, you can find it in anything.

9:45 And if I could convince my bookkeeper or accountant to

9:48 understand how their role is helping people with convictions

9:51 get worked, like Ralph understood how boxer shots are

9:54 making the prison experience better, then I'll crack it.

9:56 I'll have cracked it. But I've not got, I've not found

10:00 that out yet. So I'm excited to keep learning

10:02 from Ralph and the memory of him.

10:04 Yeah, well, kudos to him and kudos to you for seeing this,

10:08 seeing there's an opportunity, there's a gap in the market and

10:13 doing something about it. Thank you so much.

10:15 So now that you have started off, boy, I'm sure you must have

10:18 seen a lot of misperception of people with convictions, whether

10:22 or not they went to prison. What are some of those?

10:26 Such a good point. I mean, you've straight away you

10:28 have hit what it takes me hours to explain to people that not

10:32 all people with convictions are ex prisoners.

10:35 So if the listeners you know right now driving in their car

10:39 or, or, or or they're on their commute in some way, or they're

10:42 just having a moment with me and just think about when you hear

10:45 people with convictions, when you hear ex offender, what image

10:49 comes to mind? Criminals.

10:53 It's. Dangerous.

10:53 People dangerous people. I pictured 6 foot tall Skinhead

10:58 scar down the face, missing teeth, tattooed knuckles with

11:02 love and hate on either side. This was my image of an ex

11:06 offender before I went to prison.

11:07 I'm I'm the son of two police officers.

11:09 I've only ever seen the Shawshank Redemption, Prison

11:12 break, Orange is the New Black to shape my idea of what a

11:16 person with a criminal conviction is.

11:17 I only know the notorious headlines from the newspapers of

11:21 the worst criminals that go to prison because that that sells

11:25 newspapers. Yeah.

11:27 What we we don't think about is that one in four adults in the

11:30 UK, so 25% of our working age population has a criminal

11:35 conviction over 50. Percent of T5. 25%, we are

11:40 walking around amongst 12.6 million people with convictions,

11:44 well over 50% are for driving related offences and for our

11:48 colleagues in their cars today are listening away that even

11:51 speeding points counts as a criminal conviction.

11:53 But I know that that's not what people think about when they

11:56 think of people with convictions.

11:57 And when they say we wouldn't hire them as a company, for

12:00 example, they would say, well, obviously that doesn't include

12:04 driving convictions, but the, the number of violence offences

12:08 are, are incredibly low. It's within the less than 10%.

12:11 When we think about people who are, are kind of in prisons and,

12:14 and when we think about people with criminal convictions, it's

12:17 a such a broad range of people that it could be anything from

12:20 fraud related right through to, to challenging offences that I

12:23 know we all might come to mind. And only 8% of people sentenced

12:28 to prison are sentenced to prison in the UK every year, 92%

12:32 of people get community sentences.

12:34 So when we're the first thing we do is that the big perceptions

12:38 we we have to challenge is that one, people with convictions

12:42 represent almost everyone. And two, we need to stop

12:45 thinking about them as a group of people with convictions, but

12:48 start to hear like Jacob's story, Ralph's story and start

12:51 to recognise it could be someone in your family, it could be

12:54 someone, you know, down the street and not necessarily

12:57 people that mean you or will cause you harm.

13:00 So for us, we've got to do a lot of perception changing around

13:02 that, Karen, for sure. So do you work with both people

13:07 with convictions and employers? Yes, we're both sides of the

13:12 fence, to use a jail related pun, but we we much on one side,

13:17 sit with corporates and large organisations to help them make

13:21 employing people with convictions business as usual.

13:24 And I'll say business as usual because it's not just about

13:27 hiring people with convictions, it's about supporting them.

13:30 What happens when existing conviction, we work with one

13:35 employer that has 30,000 staff, one that has 10,000 staff and

13:39 you picture those statistics of one in four adults of working

13:42 age as a conviction. These big companies cannot

13:45 afford to have a blanket ban on people with convictions.

13:47 They would use all of their a large portion of their talent.

13:52 So yes, we work with employers on one side and then our team of

13:56 amazing mentors, 7 in 10 of them also have a conviction

14:00 themselves out of our mentors. And we'll take individuals who

14:04 are at risk of offending, not just those who have been

14:06 convicted and taking through a nine step transformative journey

14:11 to to achieving their life goals.

14:14 So side note, have you heard of this coffee company called

14:19 Redemption? Redemption Roasters Lending?

14:21 Yeah. I have it started by an

14:23 incredible human called Max Dubiel.

14:25 And you, there's now 12 or something coffee shops across

14:29 London, as well as, yeah, as well as roasteries inside the

14:33 prison. So Max has absolutely shown how

14:36 business is not just doing good, it's good for business.

14:39 If you are walking around London, look for your nearest

14:42 redemption roses and grab yourself a little espresso.

14:44 It's coffee. As well, there's 110 minutes

14:46 from me. It's so good and I bet the

14:49 service is amazing when you go there.

14:51 Max really cares about the quality of the coffee.

14:53 It we we can no longer run social enterprises and assume

14:58 that the value comes from the social element.

15:00 You still need to produce a really high quality product.

15:03 You still need to and you can command a higher price point

15:06 because of the social value. I don't think people will come

15:09 back if the quality is really poor.

15:11 And that's what I love about redemption Roasters.

15:13 It's it's good value and good quality.

15:15 As well, do you place people with convictions to jobs?

15:20 We are like passing ships in the night when we look at our cohort

15:24 of people we mentor and the cohort of employees we support.

15:28 We teach both sides how to fish, and we don't always broker the

15:32 opportunity in the middle. There are some amazing brokerage

15:35 organizations out there, and sometimes we do it based on the

15:38 fact it's really convenient. But what I find is a lot of

15:41 employers need people yesterday and a lot of individuals with

15:45 convictions need a bit of time to prepare for a job.

15:49 And it's not always, it doesn't always mutually add up and it's

15:52 not always convenient. And what I will say is that what

15:54 employers spend on recruitment agencies and where they spend 2

15:58 to 5 to $10,000 percentages. I would say invest in a social

16:03 organization who are offering, you know, inclusion of some form

16:08 amongst A socially excluded group, not just people with

16:10 convictions because they tend to find great candidates.

16:14 They'll mentor them in work support.

16:16 They'll you'll see the retention go through the roof.

16:19 I'd rather employers invest in that than than potentially in

16:21 recruitment agencies. Kind of short term if you just

16:24 play some. Yeah, I think you're looking

16:26 like what, a 12 week rebate period and all that?

16:28 It seems a bit mad to me. So for me, the mentoring for

16:31 anyone with a conviction or any social exclusion has to be

16:35 optional. Just because you are someone

16:37 with a conviction does not mean you need extra mentoring and

16:40 some more. But if you want it, it should be

16:42 available to you. Fine.

16:44 But then you say well why draw the line at people who have got

16:47 some form of social exclusion? What could we offer to all our

16:49 colleagues who might need that little bit of extra, especially

16:52 if we want to invest and see that individual with us in two,

16:55 3-4 years time? Yeah.

16:56 And I like that you're thinking about the environments, that

17:00 you're the employment environment.

17:03 Just because someone got a job, there's no guarantee that they

17:08 would not be bullied or discriminate against when

17:13 they're on the job. So what has been the most

17:15 successful case you've seen? We've seen people with

17:19 convictions go across a whole range of roles when I when I

17:22 think about it and I think people think people with

17:25 convictions go straight into like fast moving consumer goods

17:29 or construction work, etcetera. You know, we, we, we've got a

17:33 client who's lead project manager who's running this

17:38 incredible project for people with convictions is a person

17:42 with a criminal conviction and you wouldn't like that, that

17:44 that's phenomenal to see. It is literally the organization

17:47 going right. We've got 10s of thousands of

17:49 staff. We want to make employing people

17:51 with convictions business as usual.

17:53 Yes, they're working with us as an organization, but they've

17:56 appointed their project lead as someone with a conviction and

18:00 their offence is it's finance related.

18:02 Fine, but it's more of about the fact that they've said we can

18:07 only make this work with the voice of lived experience at the

18:10 heart of it. So so that that's it, that's it.

18:12 That's obviously like what I would say is one of the most

18:14 successful and and self healing roles I've ever seen a client

18:19 upon. But we've got stories of people

18:21 who, for example, have been rough sleeping on the street are

18:24 a picture a candidate that we supported in the southwest of

18:27 the country. They were sleeping behind a

18:29 football stadium every night and they were part of the benefits

18:34 system and they were trying to access it all.

18:37 But the, the government got in touch with us and said, can you

18:40 provide mentoring and support to this individual?

18:42 And one of our team members went and supported them.

18:45 And it was meeting them like where they like were bringing

18:48 them into town for the day, sorting out their bus fare,

18:51 buying them a coffee, a meal, having a chat with them,

18:53 building up that rapport and relationship.

18:55 Because the solution to homelessness isn't necessarily

18:58 just getting someone a house. There's there's other bits that

19:02 are going on in people's lives to bring them there and meet

19:04 them, meet them halfway where they are and start to look at

19:07 kind of the future with where they want to be.

19:10 Very few people get asked where do you want to be?

19:13 Often when you go through government services, it's

19:16 typically filling a function. It's balancing a Ledger from,

19:20 OK, you're a person on benefits. I need to get you from this

19:23 intensive benefit to a less intensive benefit to employment.

19:27 I then you then go pay taxes and we are happy as a government.

19:30 It's checked and it's like we can do that.

19:34 It's a sugar high and eventually we will crash.

19:37 So, so we've got to, for me hearing about the guy that moved

19:40 from behind the stadium to secured accommodation was

19:43 phenomenal. I'll have to follow up to see

19:45 whether we ended up going into work.

19:47 But for us just to even see him progress through that means we

19:50 had an impact. And I bet you there was crime

19:53 involved in that lifestyle because to survive it's, it's

19:55 pretty difficult out there. So for, as I like the idea that

19:58 society's been made safer, yes, but that individual's probably

20:01 feeling a heck of a lot happier in that life right now.

20:04 And hats off to our team for, for doing that and, and meeting

20:07 that individual and building that support pack and feeling

20:10 less governmental. We're kind of like an arm's

20:12 length service there. We're a bit more socially

20:15 focused on. Potentially someone who has to

20:18 work behind a desk in the government and deal with a

20:20 caseload of 200. People, you're not just doing

20:22 this because you have to. It's not, it's not the mandatory

20:27 programs that people get put on. You want them to be able to

20:31 beyond their feet again. Yeah, I like the idea that we we

20:35 know what the the government wants when they Commission our

20:37 services. So that's the box to King Heart.

20:40 But I say let's take the box, fill it with hope and then give

20:43 it to the candidate, to the person we're supporting.

20:45 And and that's kind of that, that's the extra added volume

20:48 for our commissioners, but we don't do that for them.

20:50 The added value for us is that the individual feels that

20:53 they're on the right path and ultimately they don't need off

20:56 place services because they've found independence and

20:59 sustainability in their own life.

21:01 And this is what inclusive hiring is about is not just

21:05 conviction, it's many, many other aspects, demographic,

21:10 social background, all those what, what's the biggest

21:13 education you have had to do when you're approaching a new

21:18 company that you want to get involved with?

21:21 The big thing is, is a question we've already covered, which is

21:23 around the perception of what a person with a criminal

21:26 conviction is. But to go down to the on the

21:29 inclusivity route is that it's a high tide rise as many ships and

21:34 what you do for one socially excluded group might actually

21:37 improve it for everyone, not just those who are socially

21:40 excluded. These, you know, you might ask

21:42 questions differently to be more accommodating for people who

21:46 declare they have a site or auditory challenge, fine.

21:50 But those that don't declare it also benefit from from you being

21:54 a bit more clearer in, in, in the way you handle your your,

21:57 your questioning processes or the way you disseminate

22:00 information. There's nothing and wrong with

22:02 saying let's make all of our text to the reading age of an 11

22:05 year old, because that's where, for example, most prisoners

22:09 stopped learning. But it would also benefit people

22:12 who do have additional needs when it comes to reading,

22:14 writing, understanding who might never talk about the fact that

22:17 they can't spell their own name. I'm sure they can, but I'm

22:20 saying that there's there's so much that we see and that is

22:23 just the tip of the iceberg. So for me, when when I go

22:26 through an inclusive approach, it's that idea of when employers

22:31 say we, we, we're nervous about employing people with

22:35 convictions, but we're going to run this homeless support

22:38 project over here. I will say, well, how many of

22:41 those homeless people do you think don't have convictions

22:44 because it's a conviction is often a symptom of a social

22:50 exclusion. If you are in, in most cases,

22:52 there's the the majority of people get involved with crime

22:55 through despair and desperation. Yes, there's evil people and

22:58 yes, there's stupid people and those who make mistakes.

23:01 But I will say the majority of actions come from people in in

23:05 poverty, people facing addiction challenges, people facing prior

23:10 abuse leaving the care system, or people that on an individual

23:15 social exclusion basis, you would say, well, of course we

23:17 should support them. But as soon as you wrap it all

23:20 up into a neat little criminal conviction, it also challenges

23:23 people. So 2 bits to, to, to answer that

23:26 question. One is, is that you, when you

23:29 support any social exclusion, you make it easier for everyone,

23:32 even those without declared or without social exclusions, you

23:35 make it better. And the second part is, is that

23:38 when you support people with convictions, you are supporting

23:41 multiple social exclusions. And it it's a two way St.

23:44 Yeah, I'm sure it's fair. A very everyone has their own

23:47 prejudice inside. So whether or not they review

23:50 it, they are probably secretly rejecting the candidate because

23:55 he or she has a conviction. So I I can understand that

24:00 because people are not familiar with what that really means,

24:03 like what what that person's past has to do with what they

24:07 are doing. And I think it also has to do

24:10 with what the role is really right.

24:14 Have you been doing our courses like you are like, you know, So

24:19 first of all, thank you so much for saying that out loud.

24:22 I think it's, it's tough to say. I have prejudice and biases and

24:27 I think we're all scared to admit those things.

24:30 And that's a great place to start with employers.

24:33 People will say there are certain convictions that turn my

24:36 stomach and I would never employ someone with that.

24:38 And they might only ever say it in their own head.

24:41 And I would love for them to say it out loud.

24:43 I would love for them to say it and one in a room full of their

24:46 peers, maybe people in their organization or at their role

24:50 level in their professional industry, not to be shot down

24:54 nor to create an echo chamber, but first, to hear what it

24:57 sounds like out loud. And then second of all, say it

25:00 in the presence of a professional.

25:01 I know it sounds like therapy, but say it in the presence of

25:04 me, for example, because it's for every conviction, I will

25:07 give you an individual that you would still employ because you

25:09 would say actually, yeah, I understand that circumstance

25:12 now. I understand.

25:13 Oh, they're not, you know, people the, the abused wife who

25:17 gets done for manslaughter after, you know, years of abuse

25:21 or the 217 year olds in love in a couple, a couple that share

25:26 images of each other and then one of them gets done for

25:29 distributed child pornography because they've taken a picture

25:31 of their girlfriend or boyfriend.

25:33 Or there's all these niches and examples that that you could see

25:37 it the other way. So first of all, thank you for

25:39 kind of admitting prejudice exists within you, within all of

25:42 us and, and, and that side of it all.

25:44 But you are right. We need to consider the risk of

25:46 the role 1st and then the risk of the individual afterwards.

25:50 That's how you you start to say, do we even need to know about

25:53 convictions for these roles? Does it really matter?

25:56 And that's the type of work we do with employers to help them

26:00 say, OK, if we are lifting a piece of wood on site, how do we

26:04 prevent a splinter? And you would say, right, well,

26:07 you know, ensure that, you know, we lifting with machinery,

26:09 ensure people have got gloves on this.

26:11 It's the same with if we're managing money in a finance

26:15 director role, how do we stop any person from committing fraud

26:19 in that role? And let's have two people sign

26:22 off on every bank transaction. Let's do this, let's do that the

26:25 other, And then maybe the fraud conviction never really comes

26:28 into it. There's a reputational risk,

26:30 yes, but a risk of harm and damage much less when you

26:34 actually start to say what processes can we put in place,

26:36 not to prevent the people with convictions from damaging us,

26:41 but to prevent anyone in the role because you don't start out

26:45 in life as someone with a conviction.

26:46 Yeah, yeah. And it's not to mention their

26:49 wrongful convictions, too. True.

26:51 I don't know what the percentages are, but it's, I

26:53 imagine it's very, very small of the numbers.

26:55 But yeah, yes. Like I'm sure they exist.

26:59 Yeah, and there was a guy who was recently acquitted.

27:02 I should know his name. It's such a huge case in the UK

27:05 and. And not only was he acquitted

27:07 after so many years in prison, but then the Ministry of Justice

27:11 tried to charge him board and lodgings for the time that he

27:14 was in the prison. I.

27:16 Haven't heard about that. Thankfully he kicked up a bit of

27:19 a stink and society supported him and that was overturned.

27:22 That. That's disgusting.

27:23 That's criminal behaviour if you ask me.

27:27 Oh, I, I just think like, we need to compensate that poor

27:30 chap. Yeah.

27:32 So there are wrongful convictions.

27:33 It's not how we build our processes.

27:36 Because as an employer, it's not your job to judge on someone's

27:39 conviction. It's your job to judge on the

27:41 suitability of the role and the risk of reputation to you as an

27:44 employer. So what you have to take is

27:46 someone's conviction in front of you, not necessarily someone's

27:50 plead of innocence. You have no right, no recourse,

27:53 no support for that individual. If they say I was convicted of

27:56 this but I didn't do it, it's like brutally I've got to deal

28:00 with the conviction in front of me, not your plea.

28:04 Yeah, yeah. It's not in the consideration

28:07 that the employers need to. You don't need to go into that.

28:11 Exactly, but you might want to consider what a role would do

28:15 for their future. And that's, that's what you

28:17 should do with anyone, not just for people with convictions.

28:20 And when I'm asking people to disclose their offence to me, I

28:23 will go through a list of questions that help me

28:25 understand where they were at the time of their offence,

28:28 punishment they received, what they did with their time during

28:32 their punishment or as a result of their punishment.

28:34 None of this says were you guilty?

28:36 Did you do it? And then more importantly, what,

28:39 what could a job do for you right now?

28:42 And, and, and how will that, you know, what will that do for your

28:44 future and what's your big motivation?

28:46 And you find many people go, I actually just want an

28:49 opportunity because I want to be able to get my own place and

28:52 move out of this, this shared accommodation.

28:54 And therefore I'll be able to get my children back in my life

28:56 because I can demonstrate. If you imagine employing someone

29:00 with that much motivation, with that deep of a motivation,

29:03 there's a reason why Timson, for example, the big shoe cobbler,

29:07 sees 74% retention after 12 months in a retail role.

29:11 That's huge for retail. Yeah, yeah.

29:14 And they would have a certain degree of loyalty too, because

29:19 it's not easy for them to get a job.

29:21 Yeah, exactly. And that loyalty, it, it shines

29:24 through. It shines through in in my

29:26 organization with the people we employ, but also with the people

29:29 we support. When you get them into work,

29:31 they they couldn't be more grateful.

29:34 Imagine employing someone who's done like I'm using prisoners as

29:37 an example, but anyone who's we lost the job had a label applied

29:43 to them, face the stigma of society and they're still put in

29:46 200 applications in a day, getting rejected.

29:49 And they still turn up to you. They still look at that

29:52 interview, They still take the opportunity.

29:54 Why wouldn't you take someone who's that determined to move on

29:57 from their past? Like who were we not to?

30:00 And, and, and knowing that, giving them that chances.

30:02 On one side there's loyalty, on the other side their conviction

30:06 is disclosable for a certain amount of time if there is, and

30:10 they'll stick with you, at least for that time.

30:12 For me it was my full sentence, 28 months plus four years.

30:16 Imagine that length of loyalty and retention where I don't have

30:20 to go and disclose to another employer in the next 4 years

30:23 until my and when my offence is spent.

30:25 Then I might move on. Had someone with you for six

30:28 years or so. They've probably progressed,

30:30 they're probably doing really well, they probably want to

30:32 stick around for a career, which I don't, I think many people do

30:36 nowadays. So it's it's nice to think that

30:38 people with convictions might be that untouched pool.

30:41 Really. Yeah.

30:42 And I'm a big fan of encouraging people who are hiring to be a

30:46 little bit more open minded, see beyond the CV, see what this

30:50 person can do based on what they have done.

30:52 And in in this case, it's a little bit different.

30:54 You probably don't want to focus on what they have done.

30:57 You're a drug dealer, you're excellent at sales.

31:00 Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be that way.

31:03 But there is transferable skills from crime and there's also

31:06 transferable in terms of leadership etcetera.

31:09 But there's also there's that vulnerability that someone's

31:12 giving you the most shameful part of their life and you will

31:15 know more about this individual than wills and anyone for those

31:19 who don't have convictions, we, we, you know, they, they have

31:22 skeletons in their closet that would never be brought up with

31:24 an employer. When you disclose A conviction,

31:27 you tend to talk about the most shameful part of your life and

31:29 how you got there and the journey out and back from that.

31:32 That, that is, for me, it's an interviewing superpower if it

31:36 can be used in the right way and the employer doesn't go black

31:38 like white in the face and jump out the nearest window, go out

31:41 of fear like there's, there's, there's certainly, I think

31:44 there's a story to tell with every conviction.

31:46 And, and that's, that is an interviewing superpower.

31:49 And, and then you look at if people do go to prison or if

31:52 people do get community sentences, what have they done

31:55 with their time during then? So I'm, I've never, I'm now a

31:59 level 2 seamstress for any employers listening that want

32:02 to, you know, want me to come and stitch some bits together, I

32:05 can do that no problem, thanks to my time in prison.

32:07 But what else is done in prisons?

32:09 There's people who run courses for, for prisoners as prisoners.

32:13 There's people who run cleaning and do all the qualifications

32:16 needed for cleaning. There's people who learn IT

32:18 skills. There's so much that we could

32:20 tap into if we just opened our hearts and stopped, stopped

32:25 doing it from not doing it from a fear perspective, but started

32:28 looking at it from a curious perspective.

32:30 Yeah, and if anyone who needs attention to details, hire

32:33 Ralph. Higher, I mean quality, the

32:37 quality checking there and the guy who knew what every person's

32:41 role was is what you'd want in any colleague in.

32:45 Any. And to know that they they stick

32:47 around, it goes such a long way. The biggest barrier is the

32:50 perception of themselves and your perception of them, and

32:53 that's all we really need to work on.

32:55 Yeah, and I know you're now also on the board of the Institute

32:59 for Social Value. Yes, that's yeah I can't believe

33:03 they appointed me. I was socially value driven.

33:07 As an organization, we mentor and support people.

33:09 It generates savings for society.

33:11 It it makes your streets safer to you listening to this to this

33:15 show today. But I, I my only board

33:18 experience is in my own organization and running your

33:22 own organization and having a board of people like you appoint

33:25 and you're the founder and you're the one that pays

33:27 everyone's salaries is. So.

33:29 Different to being a volunteer on a board of people who you

33:33 look up to and you don't feel you're adequately good enough

33:37 Thought like I, I did not feel I was like, why did they appoint

33:40 me? And I still have this little

33:42 chip on my shoulder. I'm a token hire.

33:44 I'm a person with a criminal conviction.

33:45 And that's the only ISM I've ever had in my life.

33:47 By the way, I'm very, I'm very aware of my privilege and who I

33:51 am and all this that the other and I and I, I put myself into

33:53 social exclusion by, by by getting a criminal conviction.

33:56 But once you've got that, the the fact that you feel the hire

34:01 was related purely to the conviction or the fact that

34:03 everyone in the room knows or the fact it was daunting.

34:06 But to be part of influence in the conversation on how society

34:12 makes decisions based on social value, how employers do that,

34:16 for me, that's super exciting. Can you tell us a little bit

34:19 more about what the Institute does?

34:22 Absolutely. So the Institute is working to

34:24 be the beacon of social value throughout the United Kingdom

34:28 through through the Institute of Social Value is super exciting.

34:31 I mean under the leadership of Isabel Paris Ram, she is a force

34:36 of nature. She is absolutely taking this

34:38 organization from social value UK to achieving the institute

34:42 status and and our ambition as an organization is to be that

34:46 central hub for anyone interested in social value and

34:51 decisions making on social value.

34:52 So here are all the tools, platforms, software you can use.

34:56 Here's how the best way to measure social value based on

35:00 three different thought pieces and opinions.

35:02 Here's at the basic level, what social value is, what social

35:06 return of investment is. Here is the government's

35:08 ambitions for it and how we should be influencing that

35:11 conversation. So it's a membership

35:13 organization for those who believe in the social value

35:16 space. And I cannot tell you the.

35:18 For me, it's a beautiful crossing of worlds because of

35:22 Ploy's main customer, social value leaders, employers who the

35:30 work in the social value space, you have to demonstrate that

35:32 they are making an impact on society and a lot of the way to

35:35 demonstrate that is through financial metrics or what's

35:38 called social return on investment.

35:41 As a as a very quick example, when you employ a person with a

35:45 conviction for 12 months, you are generating around 24,527 lbs

35:51 or take of savings for Society of social return on investment.

35:55 So I'm loving that my 2 worlds are kind of merging on on this

35:59 at the moment, but amazing to be part of something that is.

36:02 So I think it's going to become a cornerstone for British

36:06 decision making on social value and I'm, I'm really excited

36:09 about that. Yeah, I'm.

36:10 Really glad that the institute exists because in order for any

36:15 company, profit, nonprofit, for them to even consider this, they

36:21 they need to justify it. They need to talk to their

36:24 decision makers, board members. And so I'm glad there's

36:28 something quantifiable that you're now able to show.

36:31 That's so true. It, it helps people compare

36:35 apples and oranges. But even then I will say there's

36:38 always a caveat for any of my social impact colleagues

36:40 listening how one person gets to the their total impact and total

36:45 figures and how another one does it, how one organization does

36:47 it. There's always ways to move the

36:49 sliders on attribution or or or or dead weight or whatever it

36:54 might be across the board, but it at least gives, I think it

36:57 gives the purse string holders A justification for doing social

37:02 good. Yeah, it stops it being around

37:05 businesses doing good, but actually being good for

37:08 businesses. So I'm like, our conversation

37:13 today is not to say that all companies should just hire

37:17 people with conviction. We are trying to help everyone

37:24 to have an open mind. If you were to sum up what you

37:27 want people to take away from our conversation today, what

37:30 would it be? I want you to take one, one more

37:35 pause and think about, OK, what is my image of, of someone with

37:38 a criminal conviction and then start to realise it could be

37:42 people, could be anyone among society, it could be and, and a

37:46 person with a conviction isn't necessarily always someone that

37:49 has intently taken from society or intently causing damage.

37:52 It's someone who went down a path due to a number of reasons

37:56 in life, as I say, from pure evil to poor decision making.

38:00 But majority is is for desperation and challenges

38:02 there. I'm not asking for a sob story

38:04 or a you know that, that people with convictions need pity.

38:08 But I will say that if they're on a journey of rehabilitation

38:11 and wanting to contribute society either support them or

38:15 at least get out of the way. Don't beat people down, pushing

38:18 down further. They have been through something

38:20 they want to progress. They want to be part of society.

38:22 It could be your nephew, it could be your neighbor.

38:25 It could be someone that you just passed by on the street.

38:27 This famous celebrity, this celebrities who have convictions

38:31 from Stephen Fry to Hugh Grant and and I really want us to

38:35 challenge ourselves that people with convictions do move on in

38:39 life. They do contribute, they do make

38:40 us laugh. They we do fall in love with

38:42 them. We do, you know, they do pay

38:44 taxes, they do earn their place back, but we've got to stop

38:48 getting in their way or or really start supporting them if

38:50 they want to do it. And just a massive thank you,

38:52 Karen, for this platform and opportunity.

38:54 And to your audience who will be considering something different

38:58 now, I hope who won't think of the Shawshank Redemption next

39:02 time they hear the newspaper say lags, you know, did riot in

39:06 prison. I like the idea that people will

39:09 start to say, OK, there's people out there who have a label

39:12 applied and it doesn't represent everyone based on that label.

39:16 That does not mean one type of person.

39:18 That's not just convictions. That's just the entire spectrum

39:21 of diversity in our world. And let's do less labels and

39:24 more individuals. Yeah, individuals, it's very

39:27 important. And listeners, I can tell you

39:31 that Jacob doesn't look like what you would imagine he he is.

39:37 He has looks nothing like what he described as people's

39:41 perception. Who?

39:43 Knows still got some. Play something fun, something

39:48 more on the individual level that we can know you a little

39:51 bit better. OK, Discovery action.

39:54 So first one, who's someone who gave you a second chance that

39:58 you'll never forget? My investor Nigel, I was

40:02 released from prison and and I pitched to him in a pair of

40:05 jeans that had a hole in the crotch and I was sweating, I was

40:09 shaking and he asked me are you still using drugs based on the

40:12 fact of how I was and I said I wasn't.

40:14 And he went OK and two weeks after release from prison he

40:17 shook my hand, gave me an 18,000 LB salary and gave me £18,000 to

40:21 start off ploy. Because of him we're now a

40:24 million plus turnover organization supporting 1000

40:27 people a year. I love that man.

40:30 I'm so grateful to him. He was a perfect stranger on the

40:32 day I was released. Wow.

40:34 He gave me a chance two weeks after we set off, play up six

40:37 weeks after. Wow.

40:38 Thank you, Nigel. Thank you Nigel for.

40:41 Making this happen? Yeah, call him next one when

40:45 you're not changing lives. Where would we find you on a day

40:49 off? Now I've just had a recently had

40:51 a baby and someone asked me what my hobbies are.

40:53 The moment it's changing nap it's for for sure.

40:57 But I you know I really love hiking.

41:01 I cannot get enough. So I met my wife on the Camino

41:03 de Santiago. We live in Italy and now every

41:07 weekend we spend well before this baby came along, we every

41:12 weekend we used to hike the Via Francigena, which is a walk that

41:16 starts in Canterbury in England and goes all the way to the

41:19 Vatican in Rome and then keeps going South to the bottom of

41:22 Italy. So every weekend from Rome, we

41:25 would walk 2 days and then get the train back and then the next

41:28 weekend get the train to the last point and then keep walking

41:31 two days and get the train back. I absolutely.

41:33 So when, when our little boy can put his back up and sit up right

41:37 in a couple of months, he'll be joining us and we'll be

41:39 continuing our our Camino at least with more time now rather

41:43 than just weekends since we're both on paternity and maternity.

41:46 Wow, that's amazing. Thank you.

41:48 Are you a snack person? Yes and I'm trying to cut back.

41:55 I love sweet stuff and I can't help it.

41:57 So now I'm changing my chocolate bars for medjool dates and sweet

42:03 pick and mix stuff that is like dried fruits.

42:05 So I'm very boring as a snack person unfortunately, but I

42:09 admit I am a snacker And and and and we'll always pick up a sweet

42:14 tooth wherever come. Me too, especially when you need

42:17 to solve some problems. Exactly, solve problems and self

42:21 soothe is straight to the Kit Kat.

42:23 Me too. Next one.

42:25 You have worked with thousands of people turning their lives

42:28 around. What's a small everyday win that

42:32 will always make you smile? When someone answers their call,

42:37 when they attend their appointment, I could talk in

42:40 numbers that our attendance has gone up from 50 to 86%, but it's

42:45 that 14% that's the hard bit when they don't turn up to the

42:49 call, when whatever reason, whatever excuse they've got in

42:52 their life, they don't can't make it or they don't want to

42:56 commit to off ploys, mentoring and support.

42:58 But the ones that do that is a win every day because it's like

43:03 we've just done something. Like you've shown someone that

43:06 they can turn up, they can commit to something, but that

43:09 they can invest in themselves. And I absolutely love seeing

43:12 that and hearing that. Yeah, that's I can understand

43:16 that you are making an impact on someone's life.

43:20 They're making one on themselves, so this is more

43:22 importantly. Yeah, last one, how do you think

43:26 your cellmate will describe you? He will.

43:29 He was called Mr. Big, so. So it's not so he might, but the

43:37 only type of Mr. Big I'd heard beforehand, but I think was from

43:40 Sex and the City. So for me, that gives you an

43:42 example of how I was going to get on in prison, right?

43:45 I think he would have described me as meek.

43:48 The Bible says the meek will inherit the earth.

43:49 I believe so. That's also a good thing.

43:53 I don't know. I think it'd call me a soft lad.

43:56 Not really sure. He says he just kept calling me

44:00 Richard Branson because I was. I won an award of him and that

44:05 was his only reference. He thought I was posh.

44:07 I promise you I'm not. I hope now he described me as

44:11 someone who, for all of it, it was worth it.

44:14 And I mean, that guy was phenomenal.

44:16 I was terrified of him when I first saw him, but he taught me

44:19 so much. He taught me how to clean like I

44:21 never knew how to clean before. And he was like, look, I clean

44:24 the cell like this. And he would get on his hands

44:26 and knees this big burly guy who was like obviously a very

44:29 serious gang member. And he would be the first one to

44:33 to clean the cell immaculately. He would say that he got on his

44:36 hands and knees and he'd wipe the floor with rather than using

44:38 a moppy say it's better to do it.

44:40 And we take in turns every week to do 1 clean, another clean,

44:43 absolutely amazing human taught me so much around how to make a

44:47 shelf out of your drawers, how to make glue that's concrete and

44:52 cements to the wall out of the coffee whitener that they give

44:54 you all these different skills. I know, right?

44:57 But that's again, goes back to the ingenuity with, you know,

45:00 necessity is the mother of innovation.

45:02 It is, it is literally it's phenomenal to see what's in

45:07 there. So I hope you'd say that it was,

45:09 it was all worth it. But yeah, what a great guy he

45:12 was as well, Mr. Big. Yeah, great.

45:16 It's always better to have a clean cellmate.

45:19 And that's what he said. That's the reason he advocated

45:21 to the prison staff that out of all the options give, give me

45:23 the posh kid, he said. So there you go.

45:26 And I thought he wanted me for something else, so I was really

45:28 glad it was just for a clean cell.

45:29 Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so, so much for

45:33 talking to me today, Jacob. I know it like it was some heavy

45:37 topics that we were discussing. So I really, really appreciate

45:41 your openness, sharing your story, doing what you're doing,

45:45 and just opening people's minds. You're the one that makes this

45:50 platform possible. So thank you, Karen, and thank

45:52 you to the Mind Blind Podcast for for doing that.

45:55 And huge thanks to the audience for listening through it all

45:57 today. Thank you.

46:02 Thanks for listening to this episode of Mind One.

46:04 If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to follow and share

46:08 it with anyone who needs to hear it.

46:10 And let's keep the conversation going.

46:11 Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment.

46:15 Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's

46:18 continue to burn our minds and discover what's possible.