Peeling back the Label: Finding Talent where others won’t look - with Jacob Hill

0:00 Remember your suitcase that came back from a trip covered in scuffs? Looks worn sure, but it still carries everything you need reliably. With people we often do the opposite. 1 mark in their pass and door slammed shut. My guest today, Jacob Hill, know this first hand. After prison he didn't just rebuild his life, he built a way for thousands of others to do the same in the UK. So what happens when we go pass a label and see the whole person? Let's find out. Welcome to the show Mind Blend. I'm your host, Karen Chong, and I'll be diving into the minds of incredible people, each an expert in their very own way.

0:43 Together, we'll uncover insights and share ideas so you can be inspired and empowered to navigate your own unique journey in life. Ready to get curious and discover what's possible? Let's blend.

0:59 All right, so today in the studio with me, Air Quote Studio is Jacob Hill. Hi, Karen, thanks for having me on the show in the studio, the air studio. Yeah. So because he's physically in Venice today, but he's all over the place. He has been all over the place and we'll find out why. So Jacob, as I know, it's a prominent entrepreneur, you're also a LinkedIn top voice advocate for specifically social value and the context of supporting individuals with criminal records. Absolutely right. And you're currently the founder of an organization called Off Point.

1:41 And that's not the only thing you've started. And we'll talk about that a little bit more. Amazing. I can't wait all. Right. So I want to hear from you, your journey that ultimately LED you to start off point. OK, so of Ploys, an organization that mentors people with criminal convictions, we on one side support those at risk of offending to access better opportunities in life and, and, and, and build on a positive future. And on the other hand, we work with employers to support them to employ that cohort.

2:16 And this isn't the type of job you just you always aspire to do or I think it's the type of thing you fall into sometimes, but maybe that's because it's non profit. It's the social sector. And I find that with a lot of people who run social organizations, there tends to be a personal link to the mission or to the work they're doing, especially if they're the founder. And I, what led me there was my my own journey through university, the son of two police officers, having everything I ever wanted in life, being, you know, externally very successful from a, a camping business.

2:53 Now, I know camping doesn't excite probably many people. I don't know how many people listen to this podcast, get excited about it. It certainly didn't excite enough people for my business to be successful. And that camping business ultimately failed and I made stupid and regretful choices that landed me a prison sentence related to drugs and I was sentenced to 28 months and started off in armed prison. But this, it's one of the second highest for suicides in the UKA really tough Victorian old age prison falling apart.

3:26 And it was whilst in prison that I came up with the idea to start off Ploy and I'd happily answer any questions about that. I want to dig into this, the whole experience a little bit more. So when you first know that you were going to prison, do you remember what went through your mind? There was like one element where I was first arrested and that was the biggest wake up call I've had him in my entire life. I, I was in this not dream state, but this completely different reality where I was, you know, watching Breaking Bad and all these films and thinking that this isn't all, you know, this is the route I could go down.

4:07 This is what I could do and I could make loads of money and I can pay back my debts and I can actually be successful at something because I'm a being a failure at everything else. This is what I was thinking. And then being arrested, that was like the first moment, like, oh heck, my parents are going to find out. I'm going to lose my business completely. I'm going to embarrass a lot of prominent figures and people who've believed in and invested in me. I've thrown away all this goodwill and support I've built up over these few years.

4:39 And so that for me was like the first moment of fear, thinking what what is going to, what is going to happen. And then you start to think what could have happened. So the the could have happened could have been OK, I could have been shot or killed or or overdosed or when I was using in all of in all of this experience. And then you finally get to the sentencing when you find out you're going to prison and it's 11 months. It took eleven months for the court cases because of the delays in the courts and etcetera, etcetera.

5:09 And those 11 months were worse for me than the 9 1/2 months I ultimately did in prison because I had no idea of what prison was going to be like. So I painted the absolute worst picture expecting being attacked in the showers, expecting being beaten up every day, all of this, the 11 months of anxiety and fear and people will listen to this and say great, that's what you deserve. Someone I imagine as well. But the anxiety and fear of of going to prison for me was much worse than the prison experience.

5:42 But it doesn't mean it was a good prison experience. At the point of sentencing there was just relief that there was at least an end or at least an end day to point this would all be over because I didn't know if I was going to be let out of the courts that day or be given a nine year prison sentence. So to land at 2 and a bit years, almost three, that was. It was a relief to at least know that it was going to be over soon. Yeah, it must have been torture, the 11 months. We're our own worst enemies.

6:10 We think of our imaginations. There's we've been brought up to we, we are genetically wired to be scared of the dark, to understand, you know, there's monsters and predators in there and don't go near it. The dark is, is an uncertain future for for some people. And that can scare the heck out of people, not just those facing a prison sentence, but those with uncertainty in their life anyway. Yeah. So I'm sure you didn't have the idea of I'm going to start awfully. The day you entered so did. Did you remember how it sort of manifested?

6:48 It was in the sewing machine workshop. So my job was to sew together 200 different 200 pairs of boxer shorts every day for the prison estate. And I remember my, my line manager, a guy called Ralph. And Ralph was think in a prison, people don't care. And we were sewing together these 200 boxer shots and we're a team of five. And we'd get qualifications with it. Yes. And I was doing the hems and then I'd move to another bit and the overlocking machine. And it was really exciting to see progression.

7:22 And our line manager between the four or five was, was, was Ralph. And they were people who were, and Ralph was looking at every single pair of boxer shot. He only had to do a 20% audit, but he was doing a 100% audit on every pair and he was snipping the fine threads off. He had time. You have time in prison. And I was like, Ralph, why? Why are you doing that? You have to only check one in five. Why are you checking 100%? And he went, first of all, I've got all the time in the world. Second of all, we are judged as a team on the quality, production and output here.

7:53 So everyone of you plays a part in all of this. And third of all, on the first night someone gets in prison, they might have been living rough on the streets. They might have, you know, messed their pants in in the fear of the situation. They could have whatever reason he says, and this might be the first dignified item they get that's theirs in prison. That's neat. That's and it just blew me away. Did this because Ralph before I went to prison would have been someone that I looked down upon someone that I thought that was a bit rough for someone that was a drug user and all.

8:22 And in prison he was a shining example. He was someone who we would all employ. He was someone who would have absolutely, why wouldn't you want someone like Ralph? And prison for him was a way that he was clean. He was had structure, he had artery, had responsibility, he had root. He had all of this. And it's just like, for me, I was like if I could just show employers people like Ralph, I think our perception of what a person with a criminal conviction would change his offence hasn't come into this discussion or conversation.

8:52 His work ethic, his drive, his determination, his care for your product has. And I want to show more employers people like Ralph. And since starting we've supported over 4000 people with criminal convictions. So for me, it's absolutely amazing that the idea came from a sewing machine workshop in a prison and has now gone on to support many more people as a result of it. Yeah, that's very noble of him. Just because he has had a conviction, just because he's in prison, doesn't mean he's rubbish, no.

9:20 Yeah, of course, but neither anyone else that comes in. He has no idea who those boxer shorts are going to. He does understand the experience of how daunting the first night could be regardless of who you are. And he's looking beyond whoever's going to use it, just more about that there's an individual that that that might. He was mission driven on a pair of boxer shots. And that's what I love. Like, I just think it's like, you can find it in anything. And if I could convince my bookkeeper or accountant to understand how their role is helping people with convictions get worked, like Ralph understood how boxer shots are making the prison experience better, then I'll crack it.

9:56 I'll have cracked it. But I've not got, I've not found that out yet. So I'm excited to keep learning from Ralph and the memory of him. Yeah, well, kudos to him and kudos to you for seeing this, seeing there's an opportunity, there's a gap in the market and doing something about it. Thank you so much. So now that you have started off, boy, I'm sure you must have seen a lot of misperception of people with convictions, whether or not they went to prison. What are some of those? Such a good point. I mean, you've straight away you have hit what it takes me hours to explain to people that not all people with convictions are ex prisoners.

10:35 So if the listeners you know right now driving in their car or, or, or or they're on their commute in some way, or they're just having a moment with me and just think about when you hear people with convictions, when you hear ex offender, what image comes to mind? Criminals. It's. Dangerous. People dangerous people. I pictured 6 foot tall Skinhead scar down the face, missing teeth, tattooed knuckles with love and hate on either side. This was my image of an ex offender before I went to prison. I'm I'm the son of two police officers.

11:09 I've only ever seen the Shawshank Redemption, Prison break, Orange is the New Black to shape my idea of what a person with a criminal conviction is. I only know the notorious headlines from the newspapers of the worst criminals that go to prison because that that sells newspapers. Yeah. What we we don't think about is that one in four adults in the UK, so 25% of our working age population has a criminal conviction over 50. Percent of T5. 25%, we are walking around amongst 12.6 million people with convictions, well over 50% are for driving related offences and for our colleagues in their cars today are listening away that even speeding points counts as a criminal conviction.

11:53 But I know that that's not what people think about when they think of people with convictions. And when they say we wouldn't hire them as a company, for example, they would say, well, obviously that doesn't include driving convictions, but the, the number of violence offences are, are incredibly low. It's within the less than 10%. When we think about people who are, are kind of in prisons and, and when we think about people with criminal convictions, it's a such a broad range of people that it could be anything from fraud related right through to, to challenging offences that I know we all might come to mind.

12:25 And only 8% of people sentenced to prison are sentenced to prison in the UK every year, 92% of people get community sentences. So when we're the first thing we do is that the big perceptions we we have to challenge is that one, people with convictions represent almost everyone. And two, we need to stop thinking about them as a group of people with convictions, but start to hear like Jacob's story, Ralph's story and start to recognise it could be someone in your family, it could be someone, you know, down the street and not necessarily people that mean you or will cause you harm.

13:00 So for us, we've got to do a lot of perception changing around that, Karen, for sure. So do you work with both people with convictions and employers? Yes, we're both sides of the fence, to use a jail related pun, but we we much on one side, sit with corporates and large organisations to help them make employing people with convictions business as usual. And I'll say business as usual because it's not just about hiring people with convictions, it's about supporting them. What happens when existing conviction, we work with one employer that has 30,000 staff, one that has 10,000 staff and you picture those statistics of one in four adults of working age as a conviction.

13:43 These big companies cannot afford to have a blanket ban on people with convictions. They would use all of their a large portion of their talent. So yes, we work with employers on one side and then our team of amazing mentors, 7 in 10 of them also have a conviction themselves out of our mentors. And we'll take individuals who are at risk of offending, not just those who have been convicted and taking through a nine step transformative journey to to achieving their life goals. So side note, have you heard of this coffee company called Redemption?

14:19 Redemption Roasters Lending? Yeah. I have it started by an incredible human called Max Dubiel. And you, there's now 12 or something coffee shops across London, as well as, yeah, as well as roasteries inside the prison. So Max has absolutely shown how business is not just doing good, it's good for business. If you are walking around London, look for your nearest redemption roses and grab yourself a little espresso. It's coffee. As well, there's 110 minutes from me. It's so good and I bet the service is amazing when you go there.

14:51 Max really cares about the quality of the coffee. It we we can no longer run social enterprises and assume that the value comes from the social element. You still need to produce a really high quality product. You still need to and you can command a higher price point because of the social value. I don't think people will come back if the quality is really poor. And that's what I love about redemption Roasters. It's it's good value and good quality. As well, do you place people with convictions to jobs?

15:20 We are like passing ships in the night when we look at our cohort of people we mentor and the cohort of employees we support. We teach both sides how to fish, and we don't always broker the opportunity in the middle. There are some amazing brokerage organizations out there, and sometimes we do it based on the fact it's really convenient. But what I find is a lot of employers need people yesterday and a lot of individuals with convictions need a bit of time to prepare for a job. And it's not always, it doesn't always mutually add up and it's not always convenient.

15:53 And what I will say is that what employers spend on recruitment agencies and where they spend 2 to 5 to $10,000 percentages. I would say invest in a social organization who are offering, you know, inclusion of some form amongst A socially excluded group, not just people with convictions because they tend to find great candidates. They'll mentor them in work support. They'll you'll see the retention go through the roof. I'd rather employers invest in that than than potentially in recruitment agencies.

16:22 Kind of short term if you just play some. Yeah, I think you're looking like what, a 12 week rebate period and all that? It seems a bit mad to me. So for me, the mentoring for anyone with a conviction or any social exclusion has to be optional. Just because you are someone with a conviction does not mean you need extra mentoring and some more. But if you want it, it should be available to you. Fine. But then you say well why draw the line at people who have got some form of social exclusion? What could we offer to all our colleagues who might need that little bit of extra, especially if we want to invest and see that individual with us in two, 3-4 years time?

16:56 Yeah. And I like that you're thinking about the environments, that you're the employment environment. Just because someone got a job, there's no guarantee that they would not be bullied or discriminate against when they're on the job. So what has been the most successful case you've seen? We've seen people with convictions go across a whole range of roles when I when I think about it and I think people think people with convictions go straight into like fast moving consumer goods or construction work, etcetera.

17:31 You know, we, we, we've got a client who's lead project manager who's running this incredible project for people with convictions is a person with a criminal conviction and you wouldn't like that, that that's phenomenal to see. It is literally the organization going right. We've got 10s of thousands of staff. We want to make employing people with convictions business as usual. Yes, they're working with us as an organization, but they've appointed their project lead as someone with a conviction and their offence is it's finance related.

18:02 Fine, but it's more of about the fact that they've said we can only make this work with the voice of lived experience at the heart of it. So so that that's it, that's it. That's obviously like what I would say is one of the most successful and and self healing roles I've ever seen a client upon. But we've got stories of people who, for example, have been rough sleeping on the street are a picture a candidate that we supported in the southwest of the country. They were sleeping behind a football stadium every night and they were part of the benefits system and they were trying to access it all.

18:37 But the, the government got in touch with us and said, can you provide mentoring and support to this individual? And one of our team members went and supported them. And it was meeting them like where they like were bringing them into town for the day, sorting out their bus fare, buying them a coffee, a meal, having a chat with them, building up that rapport and relationship. Because the solution to homelessness isn't necessarily just getting someone a house. There's there's other bits that are going on in people's lives to bring them there and meet them, meet them halfway where they are and start to look at kind of the future with where they want to be.

19:10 Very few people get asked where do you want to be? Often when you go through government services, it's typically filling a function. It's balancing a Ledger from, OK, you're a person on benefits. I need to get you from this intensive benefit to a less intensive benefit to employment. I then you then go pay taxes and we are happy as a government. It's checked and it's like we can do that. It's a sugar high and eventually we will crash. So, so we've got to, for me hearing about the guy that moved from behind the stadium to secured accommodation was phenomenal.

19:43 I'll have to follow up to see whether we ended up going into work. But for us just to even see him progress through that means we had an impact. And I bet you there was crime involved in that lifestyle because to survive it's, it's pretty difficult out there. So for, as I like the idea that society's been made safer, yes, but that individual's probably feeling a heck of a lot happier in that life right now. And hats off to our team for, for doing that and, and meeting that individual and building that support pack and feeling less governmental.

20:11 We're kind of like an arm's length service there. We're a bit more socially focused on. Potentially someone who has to work behind a desk in the government and deal with a caseload of 200. People, you're not just doing this because you have to. It's not, it's not the mandatory programs that people get put on. You want them to be able to beyond their feet again. Yeah, I like the idea that we we know what the the government wants when they Commission our services. So that's the box to King Heart. But I say let's take the box, fill it with hope and then give it to the candidate, to the person we're supporting.

20:45 And and that's kind of that, that's the extra added volume for our commissioners, but we don't do that for them. The added value for us is that the individual feels that they're on the right path and ultimately they don't need off place services because they've found independence and sustainability in their own life. And this is what inclusive hiring is about is not just conviction, it's many, many other aspects, demographic, social background, all those what, what's the biggest education you have had to do when you're approaching a new company that you want to get involved with?

21:21 The big thing is, is a question we've already covered, which is around the perception of what a person with a criminal conviction is. But to go down to the on the inclusivity route is that it's a high tide rise as many ships and what you do for one socially excluded group might actually improve it for everyone, not just those who are socially excluded. These, you know, you might ask questions differently to be more accommodating for people who declare they have a site or auditory challenge, fine.

21:50 But those that don't declare it also benefit from from you being a bit more clearer in, in, in the way you handle your your, your questioning processes or the way you disseminate information. There's nothing and wrong with saying let's make all of our text to the reading age of an 11 year old, because that's where, for example, most prisoners stopped learning. But it would also benefit people who do have additional needs when it comes to reading, writing, understanding who might never talk about the fact that they can't spell their own name.

22:19 I'm sure they can, but I'm saying that there's there's so much that we see and that is just the tip of the iceberg. So for me, when when I go through an inclusive approach, it's that idea of when employers say we, we, we're nervous about employing people with convictions, but we're going to run this homeless support project over here. I will say, well, how many of those homeless people do you think don't have convictions because it's a conviction is often a symptom of a social exclusion. If you are in, in most cases, there's the the majority of people get involved with crime through despair and desperation.

22:56 Yes, there's evil people and yes, there's stupid people and those who make mistakes. But I will say the majority of actions come from people in in poverty, people facing addiction challenges, people facing prior abuse leaving the care system, or people that on an individual social exclusion basis, you would say, well, of course we should support them. But as soon as you wrap it all up into a neat little criminal conviction, it also challenges people. So 2 bits to, to, to answer that question. One is, is that you, when you support any social exclusion, you make it easier for everyone, even those without declared or without social exclusions, you make it better.

23:36 And the second part is, is that when you support people with convictions, you are supporting multiple social exclusions. And it it's a two way St. Yeah, I'm sure it's fair. A very everyone has their own prejudice inside. So whether or not they review it, they are probably secretly rejecting the candidate because he or she has a conviction. So I I can understand that because people are not familiar with what that really means, like what what that person's past has to do with what they are doing. And I think it also has to do with what the role is really right.

24:14 Have you been doing our courses like you are like, you know, So first of all, thank you so much for saying that out loud. I think it's, it's tough to say. I have prejudice and biases and I think we're all scared to admit those things. And that's a great place to start with employers. People will say there are certain convictions that turn my stomach and I would never employ someone with that. And they might only ever say it in their own head. And I would love for them to say it out loud. I would love for them to say it and one in a room full of their peers, maybe people in their organization or at their role level in their professional industry, not to be shot down nor to create an echo chamber, but first, to hear what it sounds like out loud.

24:58 And then second of all, say it in the presence of a professional. I know it sounds like therapy, but say it in the presence of me, for example, because it's for every conviction, I will give you an individual that you would still employ because you would say actually, yeah, I understand that circumstance now. I understand. Oh, they're not, you know, people the, the abused wife who gets done for manslaughter after, you know, years of abuse or the 217 year olds in love in a couple, a couple that share images of each other and then one of them gets done for distributed child pornography because they've taken a picture of their girlfriend or boyfriend.

25:33 Or there's all these niches and examples that that you could see it the other way. So first of all, thank you for kind of admitting prejudice exists within you, within all of us and, and, and that side of it all. But you are right. We need to consider the risk of the role 1st and then the risk of the individual afterwards. That's how you you start to say, do we even need to know about convictions for these roles? Does it really matter? And that's the type of work we do with employers to help them say, OK, if we are lifting a piece of wood on site, how do we prevent a splinter?

26:05 And you would say, right, well, you know, ensure that, you know, we lifting with machinery, ensure people have got gloves on this. It's the same with if we're managing money in a finance director role, how do we stop any person from committing fraud in that role? And let's have two people sign off on every bank transaction. Let's do this, let's do that the other, And then maybe the fraud conviction never really comes into it. There's a reputational risk, yes, but a risk of harm and damage much less when you actually start to say what processes can we put in place, not to prevent the people with convictions from damaging us, but to prevent anyone in the role because you don't start out in life as someone with a conviction.

26:46 Yeah, yeah. And it's not to mention their wrongful convictions, too. True. I don't know what the percentages are, but it's, I imagine it's very, very small of the numbers. But yeah, yes. Like I'm sure they exist. Yeah, and there was a guy who was recently acquitted. I should know his name. It's such a huge case in the UK and. And not only was he acquitted after so many years in prison, but then the Ministry of Justice tried to charge him board and lodgings for the time that he was in the prison.

27:15 I. Haven't heard about that. Thankfully he kicked up a bit of a stink and society supported him and that was overturned. That. That's disgusting. That's criminal behaviour if you ask me. Oh, I, I just think like, we need to compensate that poor chap. Yeah. So there are wrongful convictions. It's not how we build our processes. Because as an employer, it's not your job to judge on someone's conviction. It's your job to judge on the suitability of the role and the risk of reputation to you as an employer.

27:44 So what you have to take is someone's conviction in front of you, not necessarily someone's plead of innocence. You have no right, no recourse, no support for that individual. If they say I was convicted of this but I didn't do it, it's like brutally I've got to deal with the conviction in front of me, not your plea. Yeah, yeah. It's not in the consideration that the employers need to. You don't need to go into that. Exactly, but you might want to consider what a role would do for their future. And that's, that's what you should do with anyone, not just for people with convictions.

28:20 And when I'm asking people to disclose their offence to me, I will go through a list of questions that help me understand where they were at the time of their offence, punishment they received, what they did with their time during their punishment or as a result of their punishment. None of this says were you guilty? Did you do it? And then more importantly, what, what could a job do for you right now? And, and, and how will that, you know, what will that do for your future and what's your big motivation?

28:46 And you find many people go, I actually just want an opportunity because I want to be able to get my own place and move out of this, this shared accommodation. And therefore I'll be able to get my children back in my life because I can demonstrate. If you imagine employing someone with that much motivation, with that deep of a motivation, there's a reason why Timson, for example, the big shoe cobbler, sees 74% retention after 12 months in a retail role. That's huge for retail. Yeah, yeah. And they would have a certain degree of loyalty too, because it's not easy for them to get a job.

29:21 Yeah, exactly. And that loyalty, it, it shines through. It shines through in in my organization with the people we employ, but also with the people we support. When you get them into work, they they couldn't be more grateful. Imagine employing someone who's done like I'm using prisoners as an example, but anyone who's we lost the job had a label applied to them, face the stigma of society and they're still put in 200 applications in a day, getting rejected. And they still turn up to you. They still look at that interview, They still take the opportunity.

29:54 Why wouldn't you take someone who's that determined to move on from their past? Like who were we not to? And, and, and knowing that, giving them that chances. On one side there's loyalty, on the other side their conviction is disclosable for a certain amount of time if there is, and they'll stick with you, at least for that time. For me it was my full sentence, 28 months plus four years. Imagine that length of loyalty and retention where I don't have to go and disclose to another employer in the next 4 years until my and when my offence is spent.

30:25 Then I might move on. Had someone with you for six years or so. They've probably progressed, they're probably doing really well, they probably want to stick around for a career, which I don't, I think many people do nowadays. So it's it's nice to think that people with convictions might be that untouched pool. Really. Yeah. And I'm a big fan of encouraging people who are hiring to be a little bit more open minded, see beyond the CV, see what this person can do based on what they have done. And in in this case, it's a little bit different.

30:54 You probably don't want to focus on what they have done. You're a drug dealer, you're excellent at sales. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be that way. But there is transferable skills from crime and there's also transferable in terms of leadership etcetera. But there's also there's that vulnerability that someone's giving you the most shameful part of their life and you will know more about this individual than wills and anyone for those who don't have convictions, we, we, you know, they, they have skeletons in their closet that would never be brought up with an employer.

31:25 When you disclose A conviction, you tend to talk about the most shameful part of your life and how you got there and the journey out and back from that. That, that is, for me, it's an interviewing superpower if it can be used in the right way and the employer doesn't go black like white in the face and jump out the nearest window, go out of fear like there's, there's, there's certainly, I think there's a story to tell with every conviction. And, and that's, that is an interviewing superpower. And, and then you look at if people do go to prison or if people do get community sentences, what have they done with their time during then?

31:57 So I'm, I've never, I'm now a level 2 seamstress for any employers listening that want to, you know, want me to come and stitch some bits together, I can do that no problem, thanks to my time in prison. But what else is done in prisons? There's people who run courses for, for prisoners as prisoners. There's people who run cleaning and do all the qualifications needed for cleaning. There's people who learn IT skills. There's so much that we could tap into if we just opened our hearts and stopped, stopped doing it from not doing it from a fear perspective, but started looking at it from a curious perspective.

32:30 Yeah, and if anyone who needs attention to details, hire Ralph. Higher, I mean quality, the quality checking there and the guy who knew what every person's role was is what you'd want in any colleague in. Any. And to know that they they stick around, it goes such a long way. The biggest barrier is the perception of themselves and your perception of them, and that's all we really need to work on. Yeah, and I know you're now also on the board of the Institute for Social Value. Yes, that's yeah I can't believe they appointed me.

33:04 I was socially value driven. As an organization, we mentor and support people. It generates savings for society. It it makes your streets safer to you listening to this to this show today. But I, I my only board experience is in my own organization and running your own organization and having a board of people like you appoint and you're the founder and you're the one that pays everyone's salaries is. So. Different to being a volunteer on a board of people who you look up to and you don't feel you're adequately good enough Thought like I, I did not feel I was like, why did they appoint me?

33:40 And I still have this little chip on my shoulder. I'm a token hire. I'm a person with a criminal conviction. And that's the only ISM I've ever had in my life. By the way, I'm very, I'm very aware of my privilege and who I am and all this that the other and I and I, I put myself into social exclusion by, by by getting a criminal conviction. But once you've got that, the the fact that you feel the hire was related purely to the conviction or the fact that everyone in the room knows or the fact it was daunting.

34:06 But to be part of influence in the conversation on how society makes decisions based on social value, how employers do that, for me, that's super exciting. Can you tell us a little bit more about what the Institute does? Absolutely. So the Institute is working to be the beacon of social value throughout the United Kingdom through through the Institute of Social Value is super exciting. I mean under the leadership of Isabel Paris Ram, she is a force of nature. She is absolutely taking this organization from social value UK to achieving the institute status and and our ambition as an organization is to be that central hub for anyone interested in social value and decisions making on social value.

34:52 So here are all the tools, platforms, software you can use. Here's how the best way to measure social value based on three different thought pieces and opinions. Here's at the basic level, what social value is, what social return of investment is. Here is the government's ambitions for it and how we should be influencing that conversation. So it's a membership organization for those who believe in the social value space. And I cannot tell you the. For me, it's a beautiful crossing of worlds because of Ploy's main customer, social value leaders, employers who the work in the social value space, you have to demonstrate that they are making an impact on society and a lot of the way to demonstrate that is through financial metrics or what's called social return on investment.

35:41 As a as a very quick example, when you employ a person with a conviction for 12 months, you are generating around 24,527 lbs or take of savings for Society of social return on investment. So I'm loving that my 2 worlds are kind of merging on on this at the moment, but amazing to be part of something that is. So I think it's going to become a cornerstone for British decision making on social value and I'm, I'm really excited about that. Yeah, I'm. Really glad that the institute exists because in order for any company, profit, nonprofit, for them to even consider this, they they need to justify it.

36:22 They need to talk to their decision makers, board members. And so I'm glad there's something quantifiable that you're now able to show. That's so true. It, it helps people compare apples and oranges. But even then I will say there's always a caveat for any of my social impact colleagues listening how one person gets to the their total impact and total figures and how another one does it, how one organization does it. There's always ways to move the sliders on attribution or or or or dead weight or whatever it might be across the board, but it at least gives, I think it gives the purse string holders A justification for doing social good.

37:03 Yeah, it stops it being around businesses doing good, but actually being good for businesses. So I'm like, our conversation today is not to say that all companies should just hire people with conviction. We are trying to help everyone to have an open mind. If you were to sum up what you want people to take away from our conversation today, what would it be? I want you to take one, one more pause and think about, OK, what is my image of, of someone with a criminal conviction and then start to realise it could be people, could be anyone among society, it could be and, and a person with a conviction isn't necessarily always someone that has intently taken from society or intently causing damage.

37:52 It's someone who went down a path due to a number of reasons in life, as I say, from pure evil to poor decision making. But majority is is for desperation and challenges there. I'm not asking for a sob story or a you know that, that people with convictions need pity. But I will say that if they're on a journey of rehabilitation and wanting to contribute society either support them or at least get out of the way. Don't beat people down, pushing down further. They have been through something they want to progress.

38:21 They want to be part of society. It could be your nephew, it could be your neighbor. It could be someone that you just passed by on the street. This famous celebrity, this celebrities who have convictions from Stephen Fry to Hugh Grant and and I really want us to challenge ourselves that people with convictions do move on in life. They do contribute, they do make us laugh. They we do fall in love with them. We do, you know, they do pay taxes, they do earn their place back, but we've got to stop getting in their way or or really start supporting them if they want to do it.

38:51 And just a massive thank you, Karen, for this platform and opportunity. And to your audience who will be considering something different now, I hope who won't think of the Shawshank Redemption next time they hear the newspaper say lags, you know, did riot in prison. I like the idea that people will start to say, OK, there's people out there who have a label applied and it doesn't represent everyone based on that label. That does not mean one type of person. That's not just convictions. That's just the entire spectrum of diversity in our world.

39:23 And let's do less labels and more individuals. Yeah, individuals, it's very important. And listeners, I can tell you that Jacob doesn't look like what you would imagine he he is. He has looks nothing like what he described as people's perception. Who? Knows still got some. Play something fun, something more on the individual level that we can know you a little bit better. OK, Discovery action. So first one, who's someone who gave you a second chance that you'll never forget? My investor Nigel, I was released from prison and and I pitched to him in a pair of jeans that had a hole in the crotch and I was sweating, I was shaking and he asked me are you still using drugs based on the fact of how I was and I said I wasn't.

40:14 And he went OK and two weeks after release from prison he shook my hand, gave me an 18,000 LB salary and gave me £18,000 to start off ploy. Because of him we're now a million plus turnover organization supporting 1000 people a year. I love that man. I'm so grateful to him. He was a perfect stranger on the day I was released. Wow. He gave me a chance two weeks after we set off, play up six weeks after. Wow. Thank you, Nigel. Thank you Nigel for. Making this happen? Yeah, call him next one when you're not changing lives.

40:46 Where would we find you on a day off? Now I've just had a recently had a baby and someone asked me what my hobbies are. The moment it's changing nap it's for for sure. But I you know I really love hiking. I cannot get enough. So I met my wife on the Camino de Santiago. We live in Italy and now every weekend we spend well before this baby came along, we every weekend we used to hike the Via Francigena, which is a walk that starts in Canterbury in England and goes all the way to the Vatican in Rome and then keeps going South to the bottom of Italy.

41:22 So every weekend from Rome, we would walk 2 days and then get the train back and then the next weekend get the train to the last point and then keep walking two days and get the train back. I absolutely. So when, when our little boy can put his back up and sit up right in a couple of months, he'll be joining us and we'll be continuing our our Camino at least with more time now rather than just weekends since we're both on paternity and maternity. Wow, that's amazing. Thank you. Are you a snack person?

41:51 Yes and I'm trying to cut back. I love sweet stuff and I can't help it. So now I'm changing my chocolate bars for medjool dates and sweet pick and mix stuff that is like dried fruits. So I'm very boring as a snack person unfortunately, but I admit I am a snacker And and and and we'll always pick up a sweet tooth wherever come. Me too, especially when you need to solve some problems. Exactly, solve problems and self soothe is straight to the Kit Kat. Me too. Next one. You have worked with thousands of people turning their lives around.

42:29 What's a small everyday win that will always make you smile? When someone answers their call, when they attend their appointment, I could talk in numbers that our attendance has gone up from 50 to 86%, but it's that 14% that's the hard bit when they don't turn up to the call, when whatever reason, whatever excuse they've got in their life, they don't can't make it or they don't want to commit to off ploys, mentoring and support. But the ones that do that is a win every day because it's like we've just done something.

43:05 Like you've shown someone that they can turn up, they can commit to something, but that they can invest in themselves. And I absolutely love seeing that and hearing that. Yeah, that's I can understand that you are making an impact on someone's life. They're making one on themselves, so this is more importantly. Yeah, last one, how do you think your cellmate will describe you? He will. He was called Mr. Big, so. So it's not so he might, but the only type of Mr. Big I'd heard beforehand, but I think was from Sex and the City.

43:40 So for me, that gives you an example of how I was going to get on in prison, right? I think he would have described me as meek. The Bible says the meek will inherit the earth. I believe so. That's also a good thing. I don't know. I think it'd call me a soft lad. Not really sure. He says he just kept calling me Richard Branson because I was. I won an award of him and that was his only reference. He thought I was posh. I promise you I'm not. I hope now he described me as someone who, for all of it, it was worth it.

44:14 And I mean, that guy was phenomenal. I was terrified of him when I first saw him, but he taught me so much. He taught me how to clean like I never knew how to clean before. And he was like, look, I clean the cell like this. And he would get on his hands and knees this big burly guy who was like obviously a very serious gang member. And he would be the first one to to clean the cell immaculately. He would say that he got on his hands and knees and he'd wipe the floor with rather than using a moppy say it's better to do it.

44:40 And we take in turns every week to do 1 clean, another clean, absolutely amazing human taught me so much around how to make a shelf out of your drawers, how to make glue that's concrete and cements to the wall out of the coffee whitener that they give you all these different skills. I know, right? But that's again, goes back to the ingenuity with, you know, necessity is the mother of innovation. It is, it is literally it's phenomenal to see what's in there. So I hope you'd say that it was, it was all worth it.

45:11 But yeah, what a great guy he was as well, Mr. Big. Yeah, great. It's always better to have a clean cellmate. And that's what he said. That's the reason he advocated to the prison staff that out of all the options give, give me the posh kid, he said. So there you go. And I thought he wanted me for something else, so I was really glad it was just for a clean cell. Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so, so much for talking to me today, Jacob. I know it like it was some heavy topics that we were discussing.

45:39 So I really, really appreciate your openness, sharing your story, doing what you're doing, and just opening people's minds. You're the one that makes this platform possible. So thank you, Karen, and thank you to the Mind Blind Podcast for for doing that. And huge thanks to the audience for listening through it all today. Thank you.

46:02 Thanks for listening to this episode of Mind One. If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to follow and share it with anyone who needs to hear it. And let's keep the conversation going. Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment. Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's continue to burn our minds and discover what's possible.