Feel the flow, not the frustration. Learning that Clicks - with Patrick Boylan

0:00 Think back on a time when you needed to learn a new skill, maybe an instrument. It's not easy when you first start, but just repeating and repeating until you can do it may already make you go. I'm not cut out for this. But wait, maybe there's an easier way. Today I had a very fun conversation with my guest, Patrick Boylan, who took his own struggle with learning piano and turned them into something powerful. An entirely new way to enjoy learning, not fight against it.

0:33 Welcome to the show Mind Blend. I'm your host, Karen Chong, and I'll be diving into the minds of incredible people, each an expert in their very own way. Together we'll uncover insights and share ideas so you can be inspired and empowered to navigate your own unique journey in life. Ready to get curious and discover what's possible? Let's blend. Joining me today is Patrick Boylan from Los Angeles in the United States. Hi, Patrick. Hey, how you doing? Good. How are you doing? Great. It's a beautiful morning.

1:12 It's looking nice, jealous going. To get outside going, to get under that sun, you're in London, right? Yes, but it's been pretty sunny for the last days, so I'm glad. Yeah. So Patrick is a musician, an actor and a Co founder of a music education app called Muse Flow. So today we'll be talking about his journey in learning music and how he turned his learning into something so powerful revolutionary like Muse Flow. So, Patrick, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, how you became where you are, what you are today?

1:55 It's a winding Rd. Let me tell you, I've never really had a, a a job job. You know, I've always been in the creative fields. My mom was worked in news for a while and then she became a documentary writer and my dad was an actor for a while and then became a stage manager and a stay at home dad and and then retired early. So you're like great. The guy had a he had a great creative life. I grew up in a very creative household, and so I always had like a good kind of model for that, the freelance lifestyle.

2:30 Yeah. Being in a nine to five didn't really make any sense to me unless I you do. Even know what that is? I mean, I look. At your parents what it? Is but I only knew it because of other people's parents and and what they were going through. And so it was an interesting thing of just, I, I don't know, getting into that environment, being in that environment. And then it, it just kind of rolled into my own life. I, I was a sociology major in college after I was an acting major. And I got out of that for after, after realizing that my alma mater's way of teaching was very conservative, like like a Conservatory where it's like true immersion in the acting process.

3:11 And you get completely broken down and you can't stand like you like the idea to go to a physics class after that kind of blows my mind. Like I, I wasn't able to kind of switch like that super easily. And so I was just broken down, broken down. And that was a shell of a human and it didn't really work for me. So I, I left and I was a sociology major at that point. So like, and then I got out here to LA wanting to be an actor and I did that for six years. And I got really bummed out by because it wasn't being critically fulfilled enough.

3:44 And so I, my wife was like, why don't you go play piano? You've been doing it your entire life. Just go see, you know. And so I did. And three months later, I, I was making my living off of it. I was playing for auditions. There's a lot of theater in LA, albeit not like the best, but like still still enough to to employ somebody like me who is in a, a pianist that can sight read music. People just throw music in front of me for an audition and then they have to go sing that for their audition. I have to play that for them.

4:16 So I did that. I was an after school accompanist. I played jazz over at a couple different restaurants in Los Angeles and then I found my piano bar in Hollywood and I've been there for like 6 years now. So wow. So yeah, it, it's been a, it's been a wild journey. And all throughout the process, I've been thinking like, what if there's a new way to teach piano kind of similar to the way that I taught myself how to play piano? We can get into the details about that. Yeah, well, you didn't mention that you taught yourself piano.

4:43 I took I took eight years of lessons and I hated every second of it. I didn't really work for my brain the way that we're traditionally taught. And let's get into this conversation 'cause you you took piano in the very. Classical way. I did too. I like, I took eight years of lessons and the way that it kind of was for me, like tell me if this is right for you. It was your teacher gives you a new skill, whether that's like a scale or a new note, new rhythm, a new time signature, whatever it may be.

5:14 And then they give you like one or two songs to go home and practice. Repeat that over and over and over. Then come back and your teacher will stamp approval on that or you have to go back and practice that same song again for the second week. Was that the case for you? Though I learned music the Royal Academy of Music way, so like the English way. So the way it works is when everyone is aiming for passing these grades. So they have like 8 levels. I think the 8th is the final you can go to. There's a 9th which is you either become a teacher, piano teacher or you become like a professional performer.

5:57 So that's two branches after 8th. So what I did was like people were just studying like an exam, like you just practice 4 passing the whatever grade. So that's very much how I was and the way you learn. So most of the time people for a year, they were just playing the selected songs that are in the syllabus. So you can pick three of that book of the year and then just practice it for however long you want. So it's very similar because I think most people when I was growing up, most people are playing for passing the grades because they want to achieve the, oh, I am like level 5 or I am level 8.

6:42 So they're that is in their mind, not that many people are playing for fun. So and every every lesson you'll be you'll be you'll be playing what you'll be what you will be examined on. So you'll do scales and then you'll play the like exam songs until you're perfected like you said, and it just repeats. So I am similar to you in terms of like the family back. So my mom is a piano teacher, so cool figure. Of course I can't get away with that. But I don't think it was fun because I think I have clumsy fingers.

7:25 I know because like I know myself now and I know I have clumsy fingers. So what I would be doing is I can read the music, but my hand eye coordination is not that great. I think I am reaching the note, but in fact my fingers are not long enough, so that's why it'll be off. And then it's just like constantly making mistakes. The song sounds terrible and then it was just repeat, repeat. So every time I'm just like trying to hit the right note. And as soon as I hit level 8, I stopped. I have not played ever.

8:03 So I think it would be ideal if that process was #1 a lot more fun. Right. And, and #2 I would hope that it would be a lot more effective. Yes, you can play those specific songs, right? And yes, you're like basically being taught how to practice a song, but you're not learning like the fundamental skills that are needed to learn that song or to play that song. So we're kind of in my. Opinion. Yeah, yeah. Like we're missing a step between here's the idea of the song and being able to play that song.

8:40 We're missing the step in there of like, let's learn the skills necessary to play that song outside of the context of that song. So what spark Like what was the turning point for you? I, so my eight years of lessons was, it was just drudging through them scales pieces, like songs, scales, songs. I hate them. I'm like, I, I, I'm, I'm not that good at them right now. And, and here I am like a professional pianist. I like it. You don't need scales. They're great for certain things. I know that's a radical thought, but like they're, they're a, they're a theory.

9:18 Theory is amazing when it can be applied immediately. That's my opinion. Theory is amazing, and especially it's so good. It's when you have the idea, the kinesthetic idea of what that theory entails. You have the understanding within your body and then you put a name to it. That's when theory is really, really effective, OK, When you already know how to do it, and then you actually can name it. That's amazing. Scales, on the other hand, are very rudimentary. They're very, you know, pattern recognition is fantastic.

9:49 You can definitely figure that out and all the pivoting and all the moving about. There are some meta skills that you do need to learn throughout the learning of skill of Scales, but they're not truly applicable to actual songs. I don't know when I've ever played AC major scale going up from C to C an octave with my right hand just doing that in a song. Never in my life. Yeah. So for anyone who's not familiar with scales, means basically it's your fingers are just going left to right, left to right, left to right, and you repeat like left to right, right to left, left to right, right to left, and you kind of repeat.

10:29 It's different patterns, but it's the same thing repeating over and over again. Maybe the point was to train your fingers. I don't know. But yeah, right. So. So after those eight years, my teacher retired, no fault of my own. I was a terrible student. He didn't retire cause of me. He just retired. I, I thought that he did at the time. I was like, Oh no, I'm so bad. He's just telling me that. He's retiring. But no he didn't. He retired and I knew a couple of his other students and officially he did.

11:00 I then went back to my parents sheet music after maybe 3 months of taking a break from it. They had a bunch of musical theater scores and so I ended up going back to those scores and I found found little chunks, little phrases, little motifs that I really loved. Something felt really good in my hand or I loved the melody, I loved the harmony, whatever it was, right? And I, I then like, started playing that one little phrase. I started, I, I learned it and then I closed the book. And then what I did was I started improvising around that phrase.

11:32 I put that phrase in different musical contexts. I inverted it. I changed the key, I changed the time signature, I changed the rhythmic pattern. I really fleshed it out, right? I lowered the tempo, I increased the tempo. I put in the right hand, left hand, like a really, really, I played with it. Then I was like, wow, that's really, really cool. That was very fun and very creative, and I really, really enjoyed that. So I kept doing that. I just did that over and over and over with these little small chunks.

12:02 Got to college. I was the only acting major at the time that could play piano. And so all these musical theater people were throwing music in front of me being like, can you play this? I want to practice this, I want to play this, practice this, you know, and I'm like, OK, cool, let's see what you got. Let's see what you got. And I start going and I can play it. Yeah. I can sight read that. Because you have the skills already, because you you knew how to cite read already. So maybe that is something that someone needs to learn.

12:32 Well, here's what I did. Here's what I here's what I realized at that time. Those bite sized chunks that I was taking out of my parents sheet music and then improvising around them, I was really fleshing them out and I was getting them on my body first. I was really understanding the kinesthetic relationship between that specific pattern and what was going on with my hands and what I needed to produce so that when I saw it in another song, I was able to play it at first sight. Right. And I realized I was doing this with the the kind of the fundamentals of what musical theater was made out of.

13:10 You look at you look at these bite sized chunks and you're like, well, they're repeating patterns that you see all over the place. They're they're the rudiments of what make up musical theater. And so when people started throwing music in front of me, I was able to play that even though I'd never seen that song before. I had seen the rudiments, yeah. And so I was able to string them together organically to make that song. Come, come. To life. So that and then, OK, so cut to now, I guess, or like, you know, two years ago, I was bored one day.

13:41 I was, I was, you know, a pianist already. I was kind of acting was kind of on the sideline and I, and I was, I was playing piano and I was bored. And I was like, what if there's a way to make the way that I taught myself how to play piano, not the lessons, but this, this like iterative flow, maybe there was a way to make that into an app so people could use it. And that's what Muse Flow is. Instead of improvisation, which is what I used as the engine from my curriculum. We. Use. Sight reading. We use music you've never seen before that never repeats and it's at a very specific level.

14:20 So it has a certain amount of notes and a certain amount of rhythms. And it's in one, one time signature or two time signatures. When it changes into another tier of a level, we've levelled it out. So we have levels one through 26 and each level has multiple tiers within that. And you have to get 95% accuracy at the gold tempo for four phrases of music in a row to pass a tier to then pass the level. So we've gamified it, but and then and then after that, music gets unlocked, songs get unlocked at the end of the level.

14:53 So what we're doing is we're just adding another step before repertoire. We're adding one more step that's very engaging, very flow, like very creative, very spontaneous to allow you to learn the rudiments first that are going to then show up in that song so that by the time you get to that song, it's easy to learn. You know we're. Raising the floor of your ability. Yeah, to match what you want to play, yeah. So you were mentioning about kinesthetics. Can you explain a little bit more how that works and how that is bridging you be learning and you being able to play and how does that how does that form the foundation of musical?

15:40 So I think there, I mean, no, I don't think there are many different ways to learn. I am an auditory learner myself and I'm a kinesthetic learner, meaning I have to do it to truly learn it. I'm curious what what are you? Because there's like the visual learner, the one that will like flourishes in classes that you know, you can sit there and listen to a teacher and you can read it on paper and then you understand it. That wasn't me, but like that's how we teach these days. I'm curious what how do you how do you learn best?

16:10 I, I think it depends what it is. So I probably learn language, for example, I do like learning the fundamentals like the alphabet, the grammar, but so I'm going to use my like learning Japanese and learning French as an example. So I learned Japanese in school, so college. So going writing a lot of things, you learn a lot of vocab. My foundation is pretty good, but I don't think I could really carry on a conversation until I moved to Japan. So it's kind of like combining both. I have the traditional, but then the immersive is sort of like the kinesthetic, more like, you know, close enough.

17:04 Not exactly, but close enough. There's a, there's a, there's a comparison for sure. Yeah. So I, I learned well both, both ways. I think French I'm learning now in Duolingo. So it's a little bit closer to how someone would learn piano if they were to use musical, I think. So I'm I am able to hear announcements in France when I go travel easier than if I was at the same level of Japanese and being in Japan trying to listen to the train announcement. So the Duolingo way, I'm able to apply it quicker.

17:45 The Japanese way took like 5-5 years, yeah. Interesting. So yeah, that that sort of there is an immediacy and two Duolingo that we do employ in Muse Flow, the what we call just in time learning. It's the here's the concept and then immediately apply it and then we can flesh out the theory afterwards. But first you need something to anchor the theory in, which is the kinesthetic understanding of the doing of the thing, you know. So yeah, there is that sort of immediacy that that happens in Duolingo that you're not going to get in a classic language learning environment.

18:28 Though that immersion on the other hand, is kind of key here. You know, you need to be immersed in the flow of being in that culture and like really dealing with real world circumstances that's gonna start the neurons firing and really get get it going. You know you're gonna connect the dots so much faster when you're doing that. Yeah. So I think that part, and like applying it right away is also key to learning music 'cause they have little chunks and they repeat and they unlock level, get some more, and then by the end you know, you know you can't do it.

19:04 Exactly, exactly. It's it's a really cool skill building approach and I, I personally love that. So in a way we may muse flows so that I could learn, I could learn better, you know, And I know that if I was to learn better, I other people would be able to learn better too. I built this with some friends because I thought it it would have been the solution when I was younger and I would have enjoyed the process of learning so much more. Back to kinesthetic though, because we never really find like finished that thought.

19:39 Kinesthetic basically means the embodiment of a skill. OK. Learning something within your body and doing it, being able to do it repeatedly over and over in different circumstances, in different immersive environments, right. So, you know, you can learn what a hammer is and you can theoretically understand you use it to bang a nail, but unless you don't actually do the skill, you're never going to really truly understand it. That's because it's a very physical activity. It's the same thing with piano.

20:09 It's the same thing with any instrument. It's a very physical activity. Having to hit the correct note when it's supposed to be played. No having to stretch your hand so far. It's so hard for so many people because a lot of the repertoire was made for these like older German men. And you're like, it it like my little, my little tiny hands. I'm an 8 year old and I can't stretch that. But what are you expecting me to do? I started playing when I was 3 so. He's like 1. Seriously, go. Finger go finger terrible.

20:42 So so yeah, we expect a lot in in in that regard it and it doesn't sometimes, you know, the curriculum doesn't match the person and that's never good. But with Newsflow, you can find where you lie, where your skill matches the challenge of that level. You can find that for yourself and place yourself where you are. So we soft unlock everything. That's that's one of the keys, in my opinion. It's like we we allow for the self learner, somebody who wants to just drop in wherever they want and kind of skip around and holistically then learn the skill together and it in their own sort of weird hodgepodge sort of way.

21:25 But we also have a curriculum. We also have level by level increasing, add a new note, add a new rhythm, change time signature, add a new, let's add harmony. Like first we are monophonic and then we're polyphonic. Like those kind of things. We're building harmony in a very incremental way, but you still get And so yeah, you're, you're slowly skill building and it's compounding. And that's kind of the that's the whole thing. For me. In Rep, when I was learning repertoire like a song after song after song after song, trying to learn the skill within that song, all I was learning was that song.

22:01 I wasn't learning how to learn another song that utilized that new skill. And so that's what we're trying to teach kinesthetically, embodying that new skill again, whether that's a new note or a new rhythm. Truly getting that in your body 1st and then applying it to songs. Yeah, yeah, playing instruments is a very emotional thing. And if you have, you can tell if someone is just playing versus someone playing it with emotions. Totally different, totally different. How does musical address that emotional aspect?

22:41 I think that there, So there's kind of two thresholds to music learning. 1 is what can you play at first sight, OK, that's usually fairly low. And then the next one that traditional lessons usually focus on is how difficult of a piece can you play with an indefinite amount of practice, Not an infinite amount of practice, but an indefinite amount of practice. That's what we mostly focus on, right? We never really focus on the bottom threshold. And So what we realize is when the, when that, when those thresholds, when those, when the, when they increase in size, when that threshold increases in size, the, the two, the gap between the two, when that increases, joy of learning goes down because all you're doing is spending so much time practicing one song.

23:29 It's never fun. Learning a song is not really fun. It's iterative, but you're repeating the same thing over and over and over. So for somebody like me who has a bad attention span and, and I, I never really enjoyed that because all I was doing was just repeating the same thing over and over and over. And it wasn't challenging in the right ways for me. And So what we want to do with Muse Flow is raise the bottom floor so that what you can play at first sight is closer to the most difficult piece that you can play with an indefinite amount of time.

24:08 We want to raise that floor so that you learning a song becomes so much of A shorter journey so that you can technically be proficient at playing that song. At that point, for all intents and purposes, you're like a robot. You can play that piece technically proficiently, but the emotion isn't there. All right, now here's the fun part of learning an instrument. It is exactly what you're talking about. It's the emotions. Of it all, it's. Conveying the thought of the piece piece through you playing that song.

24:41 OK, whatever the composer wanted the idea of that piece to be. You're the transition. You're the person that's modulating it from what is on the page to an auditory experience for the audience. You're that thing. You're that conduit, so you need to translate that idea we're getting to you to a place faster where you can start making those decisions so that you're not just learning the piece technically. We're getting you to a place so you can have that piece perfect, perfected within four or five times of playing it.

25:15 And then you can start making those decisions of how do I want to play that song? Why do I want to play this song? What about this song speaks to me and what message do I want to convey when I play that song? That's the emotional side of it. So what we're doing is getting you there faster so you can make those decisions, you know, at A, at a more, at a faster rate. Yeah, like I wonder what how my learning journey was going to change if I had something like musical. How would that change your journey, you think?

25:49 Besides the hating it part. I think I would be better. I think I would be, yeah, absolutely. I'm not. I'm not the best sight reader, but I'm passing. I think if I was learning in this sort of iterative, kinesthetic flow state sort of way first, like from the Gecko, it would have changed the entire process for me for the better. I would be a better musician for it, Yeah. I'm already a very emotional pianist. I I don't really care about the technique. I I play jazz and I play. Musical and. I sing at a piano bar.

26:29 You're like, you don't need to be like perfect when. You're playing at. Those places, you know, you need to be able to convey the idea of that song in an effective way so that people are singing along with you and truly engaged with the process of like being there at that piano bar with you. That's the most important thing when it comes to being a piano bar entertainer. And when you're playing jazz, you need to convey the idea of the song versus playing it perfectly. Jazz isn't about that. Yes, it's the opposite.

27:00 So it's the. Opposite. It's pure emotion. Yeah, I remember now. I was asked to be like a substitute piano teacher one time. I was. It was after college, so in my 20s, I think. So a grown up and there was surprisingly like it was one of those exam song again, and one of them is jazzy actually. So I was kind of surprised that it's not really like a not really something I would think would be in one of those exam song selection. And then I started playing it and I really enjoyed it because I was just playing to get a feel of like, I need to know what I'm teaching, right?

27:42 And I really enjoyed it because I like jazz. And then as a grown up, you know how to, like, apply your emotions to jazz. And also I almost feel like you can't write a jazz song 'cause there's always a little bit of a lag here, and some things are elongated without really being written to be elongated. Yeah, totally. So like jazz is a really good example of something that you really have to not just read and play and read and play. You really have to try to express it with your own emotions, your own interpretations.

28:15 That's why there's so many, so many improvisations throughout jazz. You, you, you go through, you play a song with a band and then the second time through you do 8 bars of soloing for one instrument, you do 8 bars of soloing for another 8 bars of soloing for another. You go, you do the rounds and and like that it that in its in its like perfect state is just the musician expressing themselves through their instrument of what they think this song is about. That's the perfect example of it. Now here's the thing.

28:50 Of course you do have to be technically proficient at your instrument first and foremost, right? And so that's what again, that's what Muse flow is kind of teaching. It's teaching you the proficiency, being able to truly express yourself through your instrument so that you can start making those decisions faster. Yeah, I would be a much better, a much better pianist. I'd be able to. Again, I was already very emotional when I was a kid. Like I was able to kind of affect the music with. I was able to view it with an emotion, but I think I would have been much better at it if I if I had Muse Flow when I was younger, yeah.

29:31 So how were you able to use your experience as a professional pianist to guide the development of Muse Flow? Because I I can't even fathom how you would start telling a developer what to do. Right. Like how does that, how do you bridge that? It was a weird, it was a wonderfully weird journey. I to start this off. So one of my good friends, Steven Gizzy, he's a music teacher, he's a piano teacher and he's a composer. And so we, I ended up bringing this idea to him being like, Hey, what do you think about, you know, teaching piano in this very flow states using sight reading as the engine of the curriculum.

30:16 You know, it's very much like the way that I taught myself how to play. And then by the, by the end, he was like, this is crazy. But I had a very similar idea. I've already thought about that. And he like pulled up a bunch of notes on his computer for like AI generative music and personalization and, and, and really kind of tailoring the music to the user. And, and that's kind of where true learning would begin. And then, and I'm like, whoa, this is crazy. Like, what if we like married our ideas, right?

30:51 What if we started off with the, the concepts that I kind of brought to the table, which is like a gamified sight reading trainer that teaches the fundamentals, right? And then songs would get unlocked after that. And then you could do deeper dives into like exercises and theory concepts in the exercise section. That's the trifecta, right? We're like, cool, what if we did that? And then the long term vision is the scalability of this all, which is AI generative music to make later units that are more complicated and complex.

31:28 We need to be able to generate that music on the fly so that it can be kind of tailored to the way that you're playing, because otherwise each level will be sectioned off into such tiny slices that it wouldn't be fun for a lot of people. So many people would have to like they would be jumping from level to level or from tier to tier because they're just kind of bored with how sectioned off we are. But then there's going to be other people that need that graduation, that need that tight graduation.

31:57 So it needs to be deeply personalized at that point to how you're doing and how fast you're growing or how slow you're growing. It totally needs to be dependent on you. So we need that dynamic sheet music. We need that personalization. And so we're like, great. So we wrote all the pieces that are all the phrases of music, all about 10,000 phrases. We wrote all of them for Unit 1, Unit 2, unit 2. We're generating, we're creating an AI an an algorithm that can generate music at a very specific level, a very specific difficulty level.

32:36 For example, these notes, two note polyphony, no gaps between these notes and these notes. How complicated do you want it to be? You know the 8th notes, what rhythms do you want? What time signature do you want? We choose all of these things if about 78 different parameters. Yeah. We choose every single one of those parameters and then we say generate the music at that specific level and then it can do that. So we've already created that, which is really cool. Now it's just about fine tuning it and tweaking it and doing a little bit of manual kind of grooming of the melody and making sure it's musical and all that stuff.

33:14 And then that phrase will go into our database for for unit 2 at the specific level, at the specific tier, right? So you know. So it's like. So we like married the idea together, right? Yeah. And then and then we were like, cool, We need to like bring this. We need to see who can build this. We wrote out a whole thing. We wrote out like 45 page document that describes every feature that we want to build. And then we would just put it on the universe, OK, We need to find people. And they started coming into our lives.

33:44 It was pretty wild. 11 developer is a friend of a friend of a friend that I met at my friend of a friend's birthday party and he it was his cousin and, and so we met, we totally vibed. It was great. And then we went on a hike, me, Steven and him and turns out the dude's a back end developer. He makes cloud infrastructure and, and he got obsessed and we started just going on and on and on about Muse flow with him. And he got truly obsessed with the idea of like how many databases are needed to make a project like ours.

34:19 And I'm like, we need people like you, you know, we need people who gets excited. Yes, you found the right person so. He a week later, he pitched himself to us. He said he wanted a meeting and he pulled up a slide deck and he's like, why? Steven needs to work at Muse Flow. And I was like, that's amazing. And so we brought him on. Couple weeks later, I was playing over at my piano gig at Maggiano's. I was, I was a pianist over there at the Grove for a little bit until they closed down.

34:52 And I was, I came in on on a Sunday and there was this dude just sitting there at the piano playing some Chopin. And I was like, who is this guy? And I go up to him and I'm like, hey, I'm supposed to start playing. Do you want? To just like he was just random. He was just random person, OK? And I was like, who is this guy? And so I go up and I'm like, do you want to, like, go back and forth? You're really good. How about we just, like, go back and forth and trade songs? Like you do a classical piece and I'll do a jazz piece.

35:18 You do a classical. It'll be a really fun evening for people. And, and he's like, yeah, that sounds fun. And like, great. We gathered a crowd. We started going back and forth, and we started talking in between songs. And turns out the dude's a software engineer. Oh my God. He lives right down the street and he's a classically trained pianist. And I was like, no freaking way. I buy him dinner, I butter him up, I show him our pitch deck. He's totally, he loves it. And like 2 weeks later we ask him for references and if he'd like to be involved and he said yes.

35:51 He, he gave me some references and I call him up and they're like, he, this guy's a genius. You need a like, you need to bring this guy on. If it's all about music and engineering, he's gonna be obsessed. You need. And I'm like. Well then, and he's. Like how lucky are you like the most? Amazing dude ever I love him Andrew Urbanowitz big fan and so yeah and then another dude Tucker. He's a friend he's a friend of my original Co founder Steven Gizzies from high school. He's an he's a bassist, he plays bass in a band.

36:22 And so it's like he dudes a data scientist. He's all about machine learning. And so he's helped a lot with building our our models to start with that. So yeah, it, it all just kind of organically came together. It was really crazy. That's the power of music, I tell you. Except for the first person, because of it was because of database. But yeah, it's because of music that drew you to all these people. And do you think that helped, like them being musicians themselves, help them know what's a better way of building this?

36:58 Yeah, absolutely. It's truly affected the way that the product has been made their their suggestions when it comes to the user experience. The user interface has been invaluable. The cause 'cause they both were like, if I had this when I was younger, it would be different. And, and, and so we all have that sort of North Star for us is like, let's make, let's make this for future generations so that learning music is a lot more engaging, effective, and much more fun. For people. Because the the doldrum and the repetitiveness of just doing the grinding egg with that repertoire, you get 3 songs per semester right per grade and you're like that, that's it.

37:45 That's all I get. I have to learn these three songs. That's crazy to me. Wouldn't you rather play hundreds of hours of music that never repeats, that's musical and fun and then apply that stuff that you've learned 2 songs like come on, we got 103 songs in our first unit. We're going to have 4-5 hundred songs for a second unit. You know, like I, I don't know, to me it's a no brainer, but I'm the one that created it, so. Yeah, like it's definitely if you're studying for an exam, I don't think you retain anything really.

38:23 So it's very much the same if you're just playing the same thing so that you can pass your next lesson. Like the like you said, the teachers stamp of approval, move on. You're not going to retain it. I don't remember a single song that I played for all those years. I played from three-year old to 14 or 15. I don't remember. I don't remember any song, but if I was playing a song that I liked, I think I would have. It's like you would have learned how to ride the bicycle if you were playing songs that you like.

38:55 I just realized we never explained what flow state to the audience. How would you describe it do? You have a definition? I'm actually really curious because I've got my definition. But it's sort of like I visualize it as like you're flying and then you get to a point where you're just continuing without flapping your wings. I know humans can't fly, but that's how I visualize it. That's. A very wonderful visualization. How how does how do you attain that in all practicality? Without any illegal drugs, illegal substances.

39:36 I'm kidding, I don't know. Just like be in the zone. I think you have to focus and just put all your heart into it, I think. I don't know, It's a very emotional thing. It's not an engineered or physical thing to me. Now your turn, your turn I. Think it's I think it I think you can engineer flow state. You absolutely can. For the other people, yes, of course. I think we can make environments that facilitate flow state for for people and that is what we're trying to do with Muse flow. We, the two main things here that we're, we're using as the engines of our curriculum is, is sight reading and and flow state.

40:20 Those are the two factors that we're really focusing on. Those are tenants of our app, right? And the flow state aspect of it is we want to allow you to drop that drop into that groove, that coasting glide right where you really are just focused on the present, you're focused on the task at hand. You forget about time, time starts to just kind of go away and, and you really are locked into it to that what you're learning or what you're doing. There are a couple keys to this. Number one, immediate feedback.

40:55 OK, you need to be able to do something and immediately get feedback from that. We do that with coloring the notes. We do error recognition. The note will turn green if you get it correct, the pitch and duration and it will turn yellow if you get the pitch correct but the duration wrong. Maybe you played it a little too early or you let it go too, too early, or you let it go too late. The third one is red, which is completely wrong duration and or you just didn't play the note. And so that's your immediate feedback.

41:24 All right, The next thing is you got to find a challenge that meets your skill level. The challenge can't be too hard to where it becomes overpowering and the challenge can't be too easy or otherwise you'll be bored based on your personal skill level. What is that challenge that gets you into that groove and allows you to? Because every human needs a challenge. You need to be pushed just a little bit and it depends on the person. That is very personal and so you need to find where that challenge meets your skill level and push you just a little bit outside of your comfort zone.

42:01 So again, you're not overly challenged or you're too bored. I watched a guy play a song with Muselow. I watched him play a song straight through a solid 45 second song. A small little thing but like he got 60% of it wrong. But he loved it. But he loved it. And I was like Oh my God, I would have given up like 2 measures in personally my my oh what? How much I can take of a challenge is much lower than how much he can take as a challenge. He loved it. The next time he played it, he got 80% accuracy.

42:39 OK, because he loved it. Well, because he loved it and also this was a song that got unlocked right after he passed the level. So he passed level 16 and the songs got unlocked after that. He clicked on one of them. He went right on in and he started playing this one song and he's smiling, smiling, smiling the entire way. And I'm looking at his accuracy and I'm like, I'm stressed out for him, but he's like smiling, having a great time. And he's like, that was so fun, I'm gonna do it again. Did it again, 80%, did it again, 95%, did it again, 100%.

43:11 So you're like, well, that would have taken you an entire week to do if you didn't do it through this flow state way. Anyway, that's another thing that immediate that that finding the challenge that meets your skill level. Where's that flow state challenges on the vertical axis and skill levels on the on the horizontal axis, right? You need to find that little gap in the middle there. That's your flow state. And so those are two main things that we do to kind of facilitate your flow state. Where do you see Muse Flow heading?

43:39 Mobile compatibility Right now, unfortunately we do have to have a laptop and a MIDI compatible keyboard, and you Jack that keyboard into your laptop. You have to use Google Chrome or Edge to use it. But in the next two to three months we're coming out with the tablet app and so you can use your iPad with it. Android will be coming very shortly, but right now we got just iPad compatibility that'll be coming literally in the next like 2 months. And then soon after that we've got the mobile compatibility, which is it's so cool.

44:11 It's just a stream of music coming to a cursor. Like the music is just streaming past and the cursor is static. On the like the video game then. Like the video game? Yeah, and you have to. Play that music as it goes and you have to get 4 phrases in a row and the gold tempo and everything. So the mobile will come next. And then after that audio recognition so that you don't have to have MIDI. You can just set it on your keyboard or set it on your acoustic piano and you, you know, you get to, you get to play that and it will listen to you instead of having to do MIDI.

44:40 And then after that, you know, we've got Android, we've got Android phones, we got Android tablets. We want to do auto tempo adjustment so that we can keep you in flow so that if you do start at a very hard level and we realize you're playing at a lower accuracy for a certain duration, we'll lower the tempo for you. And then if once you start playing it at 95% accuracy for a certain duration, will increase the tempo for you and so on and so forth until you hit that gold tempo again. And then you have to get 4 phrases in a row to pass that level, right?

45:12 And so again, it's just an opportunity to keep you in that flow state. For other musicians who are aspiring, what would be some advice that you can give them? Find the love, you know, if you don't want to use Musil, totally chill. I do think Musil would be a wonderful tool for you to find the love and find the joy of learning. 100%. That's kind of why it's there, right? But if you want to somehow reframe your, your process or your thoughts on what you need to be able to play piano or to play your instrument, reframe it in terms of what is the emotion that I'm trying to convey.

45:53 And use the tools that you have at your at your disposal, the keys you know, the the notes you know, the rhythms you know, and try to play that song that in in a way that conveys the message of the piece. You don't have to play it perfectly. Perfectionism kills creativity. It just has to get the idea across. So if you reframe it from technical proficiency into emotional understanding, that would help you find the love and find the joy of playing music. That's my one big piece of advice is reframe your thought process of I need to play the song perfectly.

46:34 Forget about that. Throw it out the window. Again, perfectionism kills creativity. It's all about progress, not perfection. It's all about the emotion of the song not being able to play it technically proficiently. OK, Find the joy, find the emotion and then just try to convey that, imbue whatever you're playing with that emotion and see if you can convey that across to somebody that is listening to you. That's that's the connection that we need to focus on here, you know? That can be applied to a lot of things in life too.

47:06 The perfection. Don't worry about perfection, just do small chunks. It's like everything, like if you set this big grandiose goal, you're not going to be able to get there. Some people may, but like in bite sizes, work on pieces that you can achieve. Move on to the next one, and then find what motivates you.

47:30 So listeners, you have a treat. Patrick has given me a huge discount. If you sign up from News Flow, you'll get 50% off for life. Just use MIN D50. Well, thank you very much for sharing with all of us what your journey was, what you learned, and how you think you can use that and help the rest of people who want to learn piano. Yeah. It was very good to meet you. You too. Thanks for listening to this episode of Mind One. If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to follow and share it with anyone who needs to hear it.

48:14 And let's keep the conversation going. Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment. Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's continue to blend our minds and discover what's possible.