Connection Over Cosmetics: How Brands Win Hearts - with Cairo Marsh

0:01 We all have brands that we absolutely love and brands that are just not quite there. The difference isn't always a product is how they make us feel, how they connect with us. My guest today, Kyra Marsh, has spent years unpacking that very difference from the New York advertising scene to Tokyo, where the customer is God. What he's discovered goes beyond campaigns and KPIs, is about rethinking how we engage with the audience. And once you hear it, you may never look at your favorite, or least favorite friends the same way again.

0:33 Welcome to the show Mind Blind. I'm your host, Karen Chong, and I'll be diving into the minds of incredible people, each an expert in their very own way. Together we'll uncover insights and share ideas so you can be inspired and empowered to navigate your own unique journey in life. Ready to get curious and discover what's possible? Let's blend.

1:01 Joining me today is Cairo Marsh. Cairo is someone whose marketing journey has taken him from the hustle of New York City to the precision of Japanese customer experience. Having managed many big name agencies in New York, he has made his way over to the other side of the world and is now the founder and executive partner of Relative in Tokyo, a marketing agency that focuses on one specific aspect, customer experience. Now how did that happen? We'll find out. Hi, Karen. Hey Karen, thank you for having me on.

1:36 I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Me too. I've been looking forward to it for weeks now. Tell us about your journey from New York to Tokyo. Like what happened? What were you doing? Oh, nothing super exciting. And, you know, I wish there was some wildly exciting story that drives it. I think. I think I was really just at the point in my life, 'cause I'm a born and raised New Yorker. I grew up in New York my whole life. You know, I'm originally from the Bronx, lived there till I was about 2526, moved to Brooklyn, lived there for 10 years.

2:11 And you know, I was really just sort of at the point in my life where I was looking for a change, looking for a difference. Not because there's anything wrong with New York. I love New York, still the best city in the world if you ask me. But I, you know, you, you start to look for different influences, you look for growth. And I think sometimes growth we think of in a career context. And for me there was opportunities to grow in a personal context that I thought Japan and Tokyo had to offer. I originally came out to Japan for a friend's wedding a few years before I actually relocated and, and moved out there.

2:46 And that experience of just being out there and, and, and the cultural differences and the, the challenge of trying to navigate a environment that's intuitively not your own, I found really fascinating. And so when I was in that point in time in my career in New York where I felt like I really needed to change and I needed to be challenged in a different way, Tokyo just made a lot of sense to me. Yeah. So you moved out to Tokyo. Were you pursuing the same kind of career or did you like start from scratch?

3:17 So I've worked in advertising my whole career. So before moving to Tokyo, I worked in agencies in New York for about 15 years or so. And then when I went out to Tokyo and I and I didn't go out there without a job, I went out there with the intention of the experience of living outside of my bubble would be the most important thing. And so I was willing to do other things. I had hoped to still be able to work in advertising, but I was like, well, if I need to teach English, if I need to do something else, just anything that allows me to sort of extend that time out there, I'd be willing to do.

3:50 And it took me about six months to find a job. And, you know, I was on a tourist visa. So I, I stayed tourist visa, you get 3 months. So I, I did my three months tourist visa and I left the country and then I came back and did another three months. And at the end of that second three months, I was able to find a job at an agency, which is as much as I could hope for. That's great. Yeah, that's amazing. Cause teaching English, I was there myself. Yeah, that's what I did as a part time. And it's the easiest, like highest paying job for a English speaker, like if you're just starting out.

4:25 So you got an agency job and what made you decide to find your own company? Oh boy. Review as little or as much as you can. No, but there's lots of drivers, right? One one is I had always wanted my own company from the time I was a little kid. It was something that, you know, growing up in the Bronx and me and my older sister used to talk about how, OK, we're going to do this and you'll run this part of the company and I'll do that part of the company. It was always a dream and ambition like that was always in my road map or path.

4:56 I think the, the opportunities that I ended up being presented when I was in Japan. So I was at this agency and I was there for about 6 years. I was actually running their office in Tokyo for the last three years. And, and it sort of came to a point where I think the vision for where the agency wanted to go and the vision for where I wanted to go just didn't line up. So it was it we that that road had run its course, if you will, you know, and fortunately I had the opportunity to be a, a potential client, not a client of that old agency, but to a potential client to, to sort of springboard my own sort of organization.

5:38 And so I did. And, you know, it was all above the board, like I talked to my old agency about here's what I'm going to do when we tried to make sure that no one would get damaged in that sort of process. But it it was really a bit of serendipity where my vision and their vision didn't line up anymore and we were able to work out something amicable. Unfortunately, there was also a client that I could use as a springboard to to start the company. Yeah, yeah, networking, springboarding, so important and serendipity to.

6:06 Yeah, no. So like the whole phrase that I think is the world's truest phrase is luck, is opportunity meets preparation. You have to, yeah, you have to be prepared in order to do the work or meet the opportunity. But opportunity does have to present itself. Yeah, and you have to know when to seize it, like keep your eyes open and seize it. So I know that relative is, like I said in the intro, it focuses specifically on relationship. Has it always been that way? Yeah, that was the whole intention 'cause I, I, I just think it's a lesson.

6:40 I believe there's been repeated in multiple phases in my life, going back to when I, you know, first used to work for my grandfather in the Bronx to literally the, the agency I was working at in Tokyo just before that. Nothing good happens if you don't have positive relationships. Nothing good happens. Like if you're in a company where people are working against each other, put all the hours you want into it. Your company's going to have limited success if you and your clients aren't on the same page about what success looks like and what value looks like.

7:12 Put all the effort you wanted to it, you're going to have limited real return come out of that. So I think in starting relative the whole life there is that I and just radically or religiously or whatever R word you want to use, committed to the concept that that everything has to be driven through a relationship lens. We're working in collaboration with our clients, where our clients are working in collaboration or in a sense of Co creation with their consumers, and that becomes the foundation for everything to do.

7:41 And I think if you do that, what you end up doing is work is more rewarding, the the results more positive. And I think it's just a better, healthier environment. And I think how you work is to me more important as as the work that you actually do, being able to work in a positive environment. Now I know that Japanese people value relationships a lot as. Well. In personal life and work life too, was the concept, because it's so much of A given, was it difficult to kind of make that your pitch? I don't know how.

8:21 How does it sound now when I say it? Well, to me, it makes a whole lot of sense because in worlds outside of Japan, yeah, we can definitely use some, you know, minimizing friction. Like I London definitely can do some of that. So yeah. I, I think like to me at the end of the day, I think the, I think the pitch, I think the idea of relationships is a given, but I don't think that everyone really does it. Obviously in Japan, like you said, relationships really matter in the contents of your network and networks are built over time and there's a sense of trust that comes out of that and the way that work happens.

8:58 But I don't necessarily thinking in Japan that it's always a matter of, well, what's my relationship with my consumer or what's my relationship with my suppliers. There is a sense sometimes of hierarchy and dominance in place into things. I think the way that we try to work is to try to really embed that sense of again, like how do you how do you create mutual value between all parties at all points of interactions at all times to everything that we do. And I think that is I think that is important.

9:26 And I think that's a value add to to what happens in the Japan market in, in most markets. I do think though fundamentally I don't, I don't overly expect people to buy into my pitch. I don't overly expect people to buy into my philosophy. It's I expect people to understand who I am. If you work with someone, this is who I am. This is who we are as a company. This is what we do. The most important thing for my clients to understand is that we're going to go find you customers. We're going to deliver value for you and we're going to fight for you 'cause we believe in you.

10:00 This is why we do. You don't necessarily need to believe what I believe, and that's OK. Yeah. I guess the first step would be you know, getting them the sales, getting them the acquisition, getting them the sales. And for a lot of people who are we may not be familiar with experience, customer experience, they may think of it like customer service, you know, we call support. How would you distinguish the two? I think it's really interesting because I think it was a company at the heart of what we do is sort of experience design, helping to plan out the right experiences across the ecosystem for for for our clients, customers.

10:39 I think there is absolutely a bias in the industry sometimes skew that towards customer service and think of it through that lens. But I think all touch points matter. So when you the, the ultimate thing that I think all companies, all business want to do is you want to create a positive impression in your customer's mind at every point of interaction. So as if they trust you So what they want to buy from you. So as the customer prefers you over other options, that doesn't happen just at customer service.

11:09 If your experience and your plan for that is not holistic, then you're missing opportunities. Yeah, I have experienced something. It was opening a bank account, so it was filled with friction. It was anything but it was filled with friction. I have to call them. So calling, talking to them online over chat and going to the branch, the three are not connected at all. Like they don't even see the same person so. Was that in in Japan? That was in London. London, OK, OK. Yeah, I think Japan from my experience, you it the things will be smoother, but I do feel like they will tell you no in a very respectful way.

11:56 If the that's not how the company's flow goes, they can't do a whole lot to help a customer like oh, I can't I was not able to fill this form online because my name doesn't fit the form. Yep. And I don't know like may or may not be able to solve that problem for them. No, exactly. No. I think customer service and customer support and interactions in person in Japan are probably best in the world. I do think that if you look at digital experiences, sometimes Japan has historically favored functionality over sort of the overall user experience.

12:31 And how do I make this a little bit smoother or easier or frictionless? And I think that's still an opportunity. I, I like, I, one of the things I'm personally very, very bullish on is I just think Japan has so many opportunities. I know a lot of people forget about Japan because, oh, it's an ageing population or, you know, it's not growing in a certain way. But I just think Japan is full of opportunities to, to capitalize. And it's such a strong foundation as it applies to functionality, technology as a brand that as Japan, I think takes a better leadership position in the world around things like customer experience, around business offering as a whole.

13:09 I just think there's so much opportunities that Japan has to offer. Yeah, I think they already have the right mentality. So it's really just whether it be education or or equipping them with the right technology or know how. Yeah, like I would guess it's not easy starting a business. What was the most difficult thing you have to do starting relative? Boy, I think it it plays to your strengths, right? So I'm a I'm a marketing guy and so solving client problems, I'm not going to say is easy. I don't want to take it for granted, but it's natural for me to do that.

13:42 The hardest part is when you play to your weaknesses like, oh, spreadsheets, we have to, we have to reconcile what we spent all the bookkeeping and admins. Things are not necessarily by strengthening. There's so much of it like oh, these these government wants these forms and that forms and all of that sort of administrative work that comes along with it. That was something that, you know, at a certain level I think I've had to get better at and I think I've gotten a lot better at it. I'm probably still not, it still doesn't come natural to me.

14:14 So managing sort of the, the, the call it the bureaucratic or administrative side of some of the work, particularly if it applies to interactions with government entities, etcetera, etcetera. That's probably been the hardest, but you know, doing the work to me like I I one of the things we try to do as a company, right or wrong, some people might think it's wrong. We really do try to focus our effort and our investment into the business problem solving outside of what we do versus we build up a huge back office.

14:47 It does a lot of paperwork and things like that because I think that I want to focus on being an organization that creates value versus manages stuff, you know, So we try to minimize through our systems and processes what we have to manage versus what we can actually create for others. Yeah, like you can outsource that or find someone who's better than you at something then. No, we, we definitely, you know, we have, we have a operations team to help support us now that we've grown. Like when we first started, it was only five of us.

15:16 So it wasn't, we didn't have that luxury, but now we're about 35 people or so. So we have an operations team to help support us and we have some outside vendors. But even still, as we designed the organization, I we designed it to not require an enormous amount of bureaucracy. So we don't want to put in processes that require great new papers to be managed versus new value to be created. That's good. You're living what you preach. You want a good experience for your people. Yeah, trying, trying.

15:45 So have you noticed any shifts in the market? We start with Japan, but maybe in the world, the shifts of how people's appetite or desire for good experience, any patterns that you notice? From a consumer perspective, you mean in terms of what they're looking for? I think, I don't know. I, I think like it's very interesting because Japan is the experience, drivers are motivators of consumers in Japan is probably different than it is in the West. I, I don't think Japanese consumers are as driven by experience outside of the interpersonal face to face experience.

16:25 But I'm online if I'm interacting with the experience part is probably less important than the information, probably because people have been biased towards again, functionality, information consumption and management. I do think, I do think there is somewhat of a shift in that where there's increasingly interest and, and how do we make a better experience and how do we make things a little bit have a little bit less friction going forward. And I think that's starting to come into play. But I don't think it's a huge factor yet.

16:58 I, I do think that everyone is aware that the world is changing rapidly as it applies to technology, whether whether that's AI or anything else. And I think that I think that all users, I think this is probably true globally as well as in Japan, are looking to see how do we adopt those technologies in a way that makes my life easier. And I don't, I don't know, I don't know that people have solved that, you know, aside from using, let's say, chat GT place in terms of searching for things, which I think is OK, but that's not really that revolutionary.

17:34 It's it's a nicer search engine, which isn't the point I think of artificial intelligence, but I think people are searching and try to figure out ways how would these tools start to change my life going forward? Yeah, If you're just using AI to search, it's definitely under utilizing it. But we're still in like baby infant stage of AI adoption. The other day I saw this Japanese commercial. I think it's like system implementation, OK type company and it was like AI all over in ATV commercial. Think about how much they have to spend on that.

18:09 No, absolutely. But I, I think AI is interesting because it's a big selling proposition. And I think the the key part again is, is going back to your original questions, how does that going to affect the end user more and make their life better? And I think that's still, it's still a bit unclear. And I think a lot of companies even how they position their tools, whether they let their tools leverage AI or they don't. I don't think the articulation is so much how we're making your life easier as much as, oh, look what the cool technology.

18:36 Can be. And that's, you know, but we're figuring that out. Like you said, it's early stages. Yeah, like it may be an easier process for an easier touch point for a broken process, maybe. Yeah, you sell to jump the groups. Or like to me, at the end of the day, all new tech, all technology, all technology. Sorry this is a bit of a random rant, please forgive. Me. The the most important thing in life, the most valuable thing in life is time, right, Because time is the only it's the most finite commodity that we never get back.

19:08 So I think we value in my mind is ultimately measured and saved time or time that I could spend doing anything something else, right. So if I don't, if I can drive a car instead of a horse and buggy, I can get places quicker, I can save time. There's value in the car, right? Like that's the value in it is, is what it saves you in time. And I think as we bring these new technologies to the fore, the question is ultimately for the end user is how are you freeing me up? How are you freeing my time up so I can do more things and I can be more empowered.

19:40 And I think that's ultimately where we need to get to, if any technology. Now switching gears a little bit, I want to hear about your experience being the customer in Japan versus having to treat customers 'cause I feel like the two are very different. Tell me, can you give me a little bit more about that, like in terms of what you're looking for? Like when you are being served, how does that make you feel in Japan?

20:11 Well, Japan has the best customer service in the world, generally speaking, except for when you go to the bank, which is why when I was at, when you were telling that London Bank story, I was like, is that, does that sound like a Japan thing? Have happened. I think I can. Imagine Japan banks for all the technology that we have now are super analog, you know, and it's still, it's can be more of a process than than I expected. And then I think a lot of people would expect. But in general, being a, a customer in Japan is, I think it's, it's the pinnacle of sort of respect.

20:46 I think there's a phrase, and I don't remember exactly how to say it in in in Japanese, but it's essentially translates as the customer's God, not the customer's king, not the customer's, always right now, the customer's. God. And I think that that's how you're actually treated and, and, and supported. And I think people go out of their way sometimes too much in a way that's maybe we've gone past the point of helpfulness, but it's always it's always with that intention of treating people right. And I think that I really think that, you know, that's again, one of the lessons that Japan can teach the world around like, you know, how to how to, how to service people in a way that that that feels appreciated and respectful.

21:28 Yeah, Speaking of that, I remember I was leaving a hotel. It was snowing. I think it was Hokkaido or the Northeast. The people, the staff, they were like waving your bus or waving your car as they're saying goodbye to you. But it was freezing, OK? And they were in skirts and just stockings. So something like that do make you feel like you're gone. One, one of the things that I find incredible, like, and I, I have this coming up in a couple weeks. Like usually in Japan, you work for a company, you go for like an annual health check, right?

22:02 And they, I mean, compared to like, I'm not trying to embarrass any other countries out there, but compared to the American health system, it's, it's amazing. Like they check everything and like one day you're doing, you're getting X-rays, you're getting Ekgs, you're getting, do the barium test so they can look at your whole digestive tract. They do everything. It's an amazing, you know, full body sort of check. But the thing that really amazed me about it the first time I went is they also had someone that guide you through every station like, oh, excuse me now it's time for the blood work.

22:37 And they'd walk you by and get your. Blood work. Great. Are you done? Are you OK? Let's go check the eyesight now. I'm like, you're like, what is this? Like, you know what I mean? Like the level of service. I'm like, am I in a spa at the doctor's office? What's going on there is I found it incredible. It was incredible. Now what about being on the other side, having to serve your clients well? Look, I think the good news is I'm not Japanese, right? So, so no one expects me to get that right at that level like Japanese people have a realistic.

23:10 Expectation of. What what foreigners are are trained for, if you will. So, but but I think for me at least, the thing that I always try to convince everybody is that I'm here to fight for them. Again, you may not love exactly how I do it or you may not love you know how I say it, or you may not love you know, the way it presents. But you have to understand the core value that I'm going to every work assignment with that we're doing together is that I'm here to do whatever it's going to take to make sure that you come out as a, as a, as a winner.

23:44 And I think what I try to do is I don't try to match the, the cultural inner of Japan, 'cause I can't, I'm from the Bronx, you know what I mean? Like I can't but, but I can't match that energy. But I try to make sure people understand what I'm fighting for in my own way, you know, And I think generally, like I find people in Japan, they understand that, right? They understand that you won't behave a certain way. But if they understand your commitment, they understand their about your value, then people understand what you're about.

24:19 So that's what that's what I try to do. That's why as a principle, like in my company we have people from, you know, I don't say every culture, but we've got a lot of people from a lot of different places for a 35 person organization. But I try to, the main thing we have to do when we work for clients is convince our clients and and I convince them in terms of selling them, but to convey that we are doing this for them and it's all about them. I think that's the critical part. Now your clients are are they like Japanese companies or foreign companies trying to break into the market of Japan?

24:58 Most of our clients are, I'd say, established international companies in Japan. OK. So like from an employee perspective, a lot of their team will be by nature Japanese, but the company itself may be a multinational corporation. Cause the reason I ask that is, well, maybe it's not so relevant anymore, but I'll ask it anyway 'cause I want to see like for companies who want to target Japan as a market. Yep. And what kind of things do they have to be mindful of? I just, how do you say the most important thing that I think that I'm trying to, I'm trying to try to condense this thought.

25:35 I just think the most important thing is that people have to understand that Japan has its own values and its own energy and that when you come into Japan, you have to adapt to that. Now, that's true of every market, I think to some extent. But I think what are the key differences is that unlike, I don't know, and I don't want to single out a specific country and get it wrong, but I think a lot of countries because of colonialism, imperialism, have taken cues from the West And so that the model and the fit with the way the Western world works and the way that they work sort of aligned better.

26:12 Japan didn't go through that. So Japan's like we've built it on our own. You're going to have to fit with our system a little bit. And I think sometimes too, like if I'm a global, you know, FMCG brand and I'm headquartered in London or New York and I come up with this campaign, this campaign will resonate in a lot of different markets all the way. Resonates here, resonates in that market. Why doesn't it resonate in Japan? It's not because Japan is inherently difficult. It's Japan. You have to adapt a little bit more to the Japanese environment than you do and other markets, even though they all had their own distinct culture, but they're just used to being a little bit more flexible to the Western way of working.

26:53 Have you seen any like campaign gone wrong? Oh, just probably 1,000,000. I see some people, what's when you come to mind? Like I try, I always try not to be specific 'cause I don't want anyone get mad at. You don't name don't name the brand. No, but like so. But I, I tell you this, so I think this is really interesting. We, a competitive agency of ours. We, we shared a client back when I was at my old agency before, before I started a relative, the client really wanted to do a Western style ad for, for, for their campaign.

27:32 And you know, I think we, my old company, we're sort of splitting that difference, right? We, we're an international agency in Japan, so you have the ability to do Western style work, but you also try to do something locally. And I think that the client wasn't that happy with the concept we presented. So they moved over to work with the Japanese agency, one of the largest Japanese agencies in, in, in Japan. But the work that the agency did was so not. It wasn't suited for the Japan market. It was like a Japanese imitation of a Western ad.

28:12 So it didn't even look like a Great Western ad. It just looked really out of place to. Me. They're here or there. Yeah, Like what's, what is this like, like, like 'cause you know what I mean? It was, it was very, it was very odd and confusing, but I think it's because they were trying to straddle sort of cultural lines and gaps. And I, I, I don't know. And I think that comes from sometimes like the, the, the clients like what we want to position ourselves this way. And so everyone is trying to make that happen.

28:43 And I think the reality is you should always position yourself around what is your audience. Need like. You know, as a, as a brand, this is what I offer, this is what I stand for, absolutely. But how do I get you, whether you're a Japanese woman or a housewife in Chicago or a banker in New York or a a business person in Bangkok, it doesn't matter. I have to then go, how do I get you to understand what Ioffer? And I have to work around that context, not be a bit rigid. And I think where work is work goes wrong.

29:14 And that sort of cultural sense is when we become too rigid about how we're trying to look versus how how are we trying to connect with our audience. So you having managed operations in your other agencies before, I'm sure numbers means a lot to you. So how are there any indicators that you can see that the customer experience is improving besides the sales numbers?

29:43 You know, there's obviously a lot of people use NPS as an indicator of that, you know, Net Promoter score, which is really designed to say, you know, how much people have if you, I think I think that's a valid way to look at it. And I think brand satisfaction, one of the things that we personally look at is we look at something that we call connectivity. And connectivity is literally designed to to measure how connected a brand feels, how connected does a consumer feel with that particular brand, especially relative to the competition.

30:18 What we found is sort of the brand connection is a leading indicator of sales later. Right, so. Sell sales is great, but sales is a lagging indicator. If you understand whether or not you're connecting, whether you're resonating, and then if you're not well, you can still pivot. If you wait, then yes, the sales will be lower and they'll be disappointed. So we use connectivity, which is a quantitative study as well to sort to be able to measure that and be able to help our clients sort of understand it and and anticipate potential issues.

30:54 Is that something that relatives developed? Yeah, it's, it's something that came it, it, it comes out of the whole relationship philosophy again, we really believe it. And, and the reason why we develop connectivity is, look, I can sit here and I can tell you relationships are important or relationships drive business. Relationships are not. If I can't prove it quantitatively, then who cares? You know what I mean? I got, I got a lot, I got lots of philosophies I can share with you. But like at the end of the day, if we're going to do business, you know, together, I have to be able to say, well, the reason why we work this way is the results you get.

31:25 So we, we've spent, boy, I don't know, probably about four to five years developing the actual tool, basically collecting data year over year and understanding trends and patterns against that to sort of formulate the the way that we build and deploy connectivity. Wow. I wanted to ask you for companies who still think of sales relationship with their customers in the more transactional unit, what would you suggest that they start doing besides talking to you? Yeah, look, I think, I think transactions matter, right?

32:03 Transactions absolutely matter. We've got to make money and we don't need to make money in three years. We need to make money today. So I I don't, I don't expect people to do anything different. I or rather, I don't expect people to change their focus. What I always try to tell people this, how are you engaging with your audience so that while you create a transaction today, you're also creating a preference for tomorrow? So one of the ways that we try to encourage our clients to think is through this lens of what we call sort of the connection journey.

32:39 One of the things that I hate as a as a construct is the whole customer journey. Customer journey is like to me, a fallacy that that some marketing guy made-up because customers don't go on journeys. Brands want to go somewhere, businesses want to connect. So as you're selling, how are you also building connections along the way? That's what I would suggest people to think about. Not stop selling, but make sure you're connecting along the way so you're making selling easier and more efficient, faster and more likely to to repeat.

33:09 Yeah. Like a repeat customer is worth so much and the cost of acquire, yeah, like it's the cost of the repeat sale is so much lower. Absolutely. And and I just think every dollar you spend you how do you say it? If I pay $1000 to get a thousand $1500 worth for sales, well that's great. I guess that's positive ROI. But if I always have to spend that $1000 to get that $1500 of sales, then I'm never going to be able to grow. Now next time if I could spend 800 and get 1500, next time if I could spend 700 and 1500, then my business is on a different trajectory, you know?

33:46 Yeah. So definitely forward-looking is paving the way for or a repeat customer base. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Right, so for this last part, want to play something fun or ask you some quick reperfier questions? So OK if you could ban one overused marketing buzzword besides customer journey. I gave it away. What would you say? Can I come back to that one? I'm stuck. I still have to. Can I still have the customer Journeyman? Alright, go to the next question on me. I'm sorry. What was the most Japanese customer experience you have had?

34:24 There's so many, I think that, you know, every time you go to a store in Japan, like the level of service that you get, the patients that you get the, the care that you get if you buy something and they wrap it up. It's just, it's amazing every single time And it's it's incredible the amount of care and dedication that that people put into taking care of their customers. Yeah, yeah. I have a funny story I wanna share. Yeah, please. I remember buying like self-serve at a convenience store. So the staff asked me, do you want to like, is it take away or are you eating it now?

34:57 No, I said take away. And then I was like, what's gonna be the difference, right? Like, right. So they put it in this paper stand and they have like a wafer cone. They put the wafer cone on it and put it in a bag. So by the time I get home, this thing would still be intact. To me, that would always be the story that I tell if you ask me that. Yeah, I think that's, it's, it's amazing how, how people care about that, you know? So I wish more countries would do that. Absolutely. Next one one non negotiable habit that you have picked up after moving to Japan.

35:38 After moving to Japan, I think just being politer a little bit, I think, you know, I'm from New York. We're not very polite. I think it's, I think Japan, people are always respect and it's weird 'cause now when I visit New York, you're like, excuse me, People get weird. Like, excuse me, you don't say that around here. But I think it, it just sort of becomes part of your DNA, You know, it's, it's just try to be a little bit extra polite and considerate of others. Great one brand you think absolutely nails customer experience.

36:08 I think there's a few brands and I think I'll, I'll, I'll use Patagonia as a example. I think the reason why I think Patagonia is really good at what they do is 'cause I think customer experience doesn't just start from the bells and whistles of, of, of you know, service points or, or, or, or interface design. It comes from what you stand for, right? And Patagonia has a clear position of what they actually stand for. And then through their whole experience that is consistent of what they stand for.

36:38 Whether you're returning clothing, whether you're buying clothing, that sense of care for the environment is so consistent. And I think every time I engage or someone engages with Patagonia, they're going to get that same consistent experience in a way that I think is fantastic. Great, I am not a customer yet but I will start paying more attention to them. OK, next one. The worst experience you've had as a customer? It doesn't have to be. In Japan, yeah, I'll tell you like so this is probably with my cell phone provider in the US, right And so I've had a even with in Japan, I maintain my US cell phone and for some reason, I don't know why, for some reason they stopped charging me my credit card.

37:26 So I and I so I come to the US and I like the what's my US phone number's not working what's going on? And I go to the store and the guy in the store is like, oh, you got a call, but I can't help you. I I, what do you mean you can't help me? This is the store, this is the place like you got to call these guys and then I call them up and basically I don't know what happened but somehow there was an issue with charging my credit card and they didn't charge it and then so they cut it off I'm like, OK, cool.

37:50 Well, can you turn it back on? I'll pay you the money right now. Like, yeah, but we need the money first. But yeah, but you'll turn it back on after I do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. Finally. Like it took like a couple of days for them to make sure for them to verify that they had the payment and things like that. And then I'm like, cool, like, great. Thank you. And I'm like, yeah, well, what about my number? Like, oh, well, you now you got to call somebody else. I'm like, what do you mean I got to call someone else?

38:14 Like this is the whole reason I'm trying to get this worked out. At the end of the day, they they never gave me my number bags. Oh, but the reason I don't even care about that, the reason there's a lack of transparency that says I went to them because I was like, hey, my phone's not working. I need this number. You can lay out that, he said. Here's what we are, here's what we're going to do, Here's what's going to. Happen. Instead, it's like, well, what we want's the money, and we're not going to tell you about what you're going to get until after we get that.

38:41 And by the way, you're not going to get what you want. I know. I'm like. That's unreal. Like I know mobile carriers are notorious. They're they're. Horrible. Stuff like that. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, did you not think, like, what am I trying to do? Like, why do I want to give you money? Yeah, if I'm not going to use this ever again. Exactly. And I think the whole thing is, and this is the part where customer service organizations sometimes fail is that they are protecting the company. They're not looking out for the consumer.

39:12 And I get it right. There's a lot of people who might scam you. There's a lot of things that people worry about, especially, you know, when you think about your company as a financial instrument. But at the same time, if you're designing your, your service organization to protect the company versus to take care and, and, and surprise and delight consumers, I think it's weird. You know, I was and this is a company I was a customer of for 25 years. We could have worked that. Now I think you know. Yeah, yeah.

39:43 So did you end up getting a new a different carrier? Yeah, went to a different carrier. Yeah, good for you. OK, so last question, because you your company's space in Tokyo, you live in Tokyo, I'm sure a lot of people are jealous. So what's your favorite place to go in Tokyo to clear your head? Tokyo's interesting because it's really dense sometimes, you know, like so. And I, and I live right in the heart of the city, but I do live by the Imperial Palace. So I don't know you've you've been to Tokyo, so you know the Imperial.

40:16 Palace. Yeah, it's a serene. Yeah, it's, it's super hot 'cause there's no shade during the summer, but on a nice fall day, just taking a walk or a run around the Imperial Palace is very freeing 'cause you, what you see for people who haven't been there, what you see is you. It's almost like Central Park in New York almost. It's much smaller than Central Park, but what I mean by that is that it's it's tree lined, but it's surrounded by sort of the industrial skyline of the business skyline of, of Tokyo.

40:45 So as you walk around, particularly around if it's around sunset ish, it's a nice view and it's a nice sort of contrast between sort of the hustle of the city and the, the tradition of the Imperial Palace. But with the modernity sort of surrounding it. Yeah, I think that's the beauty of Japan. You see so many like historic Japanese looking architecture. Yeah, next to like a modern high rise. No, similar to London actually. There's a lot of that. To Japan is old that way. The only thing about Japan is that they have earthquakes.

41:18 So we, we have a lot of like new buildings that aren't always distinctive in their architecture 'cause they're built, they're built to withstand an earthquake versus to the like BI. Well, thank you very much for having this chat with me. Like I've been looking forward to it for weeks. Like I said, just passionate about my companies, thinking about customer experience instead of just transactions and just just make us less frustrated. Yeah, we don't need any more frustrations. No, absolutely. And and I really appreciate being on.

41:51 I really enjoyed this conversation and I think, you know, obviously if there's anything, you know, that that I've shared people have questions about later around experience, it's something I'm also very passionate about as well. You know, like the how do we, I, I believe that, you know, life is life is complicated, but it's also simple. And like, if we make life a little bit less frustrating on a daily basis, even though that doesn't seem like you did a lot, that means a lot because you know that you it impacts so many people.

42:21 Yeah, What's a good way to get in contact with you if anyone's interested? Yeah. Well, obviously you could contact us through our website, whichisrelative.com. There's no E on relatives or relative without the e.com or you can find me on on LinkedIn, Cairo Marsh. I'm pretty much the only one, so I'll be there. All right. Thank you very much. Absolutely, Karen. Thank you.

42:48 Thanks for listening to this episode of Mine One. Maybe enjoy the conversation. Don't forget to follow and share it with anyone who needs to hear it. And let's keep the conversation going. Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment. Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's continue to plan our minds and discover what's possible.