The Thoughtful Advantage in a Reactive World - Larry Schooler

0:00 So during the first year of the conflict in the Middle East,

0:04 which is something that I think and feel a lot about, somebody

0:08 posted something on a company wide message board that was

0:12 typically used for logistical type thing.

0:15 Made a very, in my opinion, very jagged edged sharply critical

0:19 comment that that upset me in the abstract, but also upset me

0:24 because of the way in which it was conveyed in that in that

0:27 setting. And so, I mean, I even here

0:30 recalling it to you, Karen, I was 18 months or more ago.

0:33 I mean, it's still kind of gets me a little bit upset, but I

0:37 chose not to respond on the board in a public way.

0:42 But I requested a a time to talk with this person one-on-one.

0:45 The old me might have said, how dare you say something like

0:49 that? And who do you think you are?

0:51 And, you know, just really, really come at the person as

0:54 being somehow invalid almost in their viewpoint.

0:59 And I just knew that that really wasn't going to be productive

1:04 and it could permanently damage the relationship.

1:09 At this moment in time, it feels like every headline is about

1:12 escalation, strong words, sharper reactions, lines being

1:17 drawn. But conflict doesn't begin only

1:20 on the global stage. It begins in everyday moments, a

1:23 post, a meeting, a comment that lands the wrong way.

1:28 In this episode, I explore with Doctor Larry Schooler what

1:32 happens in the space before escalation and why the

1:35 professionals who thrive aren't the loudest or the most

1:38 agreeable, but the ones who know how to pause, regulate, and

1:43 respond thoughtfully. Welcome to the show on Mind

1:48 Blend. I'm your host, Karen Chong, and

1:51 I'll be diving into the minds of incredible people, each an

1:55 expert in their very own way. Together, we'll uncover insights

1:59 and share ideas so you can be inspired and empowered to

2:02 navigate your own unique journey in life.

2:05 Ready to get curious and discover what's possible?

2:08 Let's blend. So today I'm joined by doctor

2:15 Larry Schooler, a communication scholar and a former journalist

2:20 who spent years studying what happens when everyday

2:22 communications go unexamined and how thoughtful this can help

2:27 people stay effective, credible and grounded long before things

2:31 escalate. Hi, Larry.

2:33 Welcome to Mine Blend. Karen, it's wonderful to be

2:36 here. Thanks for having me.

2:37 So at the time of this recording, we are two weeks into

2:40 January escalating and conflict is something that is just very

2:46 relevant as we see in global headlines.

2:49 So today's conversation feels extra timely.

2:53 But we're not talking about conflict today.

2:55 We want to be more proactive and preventative and talk about what

3:00 happens before the conflict. Why don't we start by learning a

3:05 little bit more about yourself, how you went from journalism to

3:09 your current position. Yeah, I appreciate you asking.

3:13 It really stemmed from a story that I was reporting as a

3:16 journalist. So about 3 or 4 years into my

3:19 time as a journalist, a group in North Carolina set up something

3:22 called a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

3:25 And some listeners may be familiar with that phrasing from

3:29 places like South Africa, where Nelson Mandela and and

3:33 Archbishop Desmond Tutu created something where laypeople

3:36 essentially heard testimonies from South Africans about

3:41 apartheid, both from the perspective of the victims but

3:44 also from the perspective of perpetrators.

3:46 And the idea was that rather than prosecuting everybody

3:50 associated with those crimes and having to do that for years and

3:54 years, costing untold, you know, millions of dollars, the

3:58 Commission was designed to allow the truth to come forward and to

4:02 make a full accounting of what had taken place.

4:05 And then, as the name implies, to try to reconcile parties that

4:09 had been essentially at war with each other in one form or

4:12 another. So obviously, here I am telling

4:14 you about this, you know, 20 something years after this came

4:18 into my orbit. It really had a profound impact.

4:21 And I think it led me to realize that there might be a way for me

4:27 to go from just an objective observer, which is I think

4:31 primarily what a good journalist does, to someone whose

4:36 objectivity is still important, but is also trying to to push

4:41 parties forward in some fashion. And that there's this whole

4:44 field out there where that can take place.

4:47 I just really didn't know of its existence.

4:49 So that was really the seed of this that took place in earnest

4:55 probably about 5 or 6 years after that story first came to

5:01 my attention. And there were just a couple of

5:03 roles that I played, particularly inside of

5:05 government, where I was basically tasked with kind of a

5:09 form of shuttle diplomacy around some public policy.

5:12 And, you know, leverage that into becoming sort of a full

5:15 time conflict management, conflict resolution

5:19 professional, which is what I do now alongside my teaching at the

5:22 university. So conflict management, conflict

5:27 mediation, The conflict has already happened.

5:30 You're trying to put out the fire, but what?

5:34 Which part of your work contributes to the side where

5:38 before things get to conflict? Like what?

5:41 How you play a role in having the parties be in a stage where

5:48 they can avoid getting into that conflict stage.

5:52 Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I, I like the way you're

5:54 framing it. I, I think I might frame it a

5:57 little bit differently just in the sense that I, I tend to

6:01 begin my semester by telling students that conflict is

6:05 period. In other words, it's, it's as

6:07 much a part of our lives as the sun rising and setting and, and

6:10 blinking and hearts beating and all that sort of thing.

6:13 Because I think that it often is cast in the light of almost a

6:17 disease, you know, something that ails us.

6:20 And. That's that's understandable.

6:22 I mean, conflicts can have horrible consequences in many

6:25 instances, but I do think that it's important for us to to

6:31 normalize conflict in some ways and to not think of it as

6:35 strictly something that needs to be avoided or prevented, but but

6:39 needs to be understood and managed.

6:43 Because it will emerge on an almost daily basis, maybe at at

6:46 different levels or or degrees of severity, but it will likely

6:50 emerge. But to go back to your question,

6:53 I I think that one of the most meaningful parts of my work is

6:58 when I'm given the opportunity to work with a group of people

7:01 from the beginning of their process of, of working on an

7:05 issue and we create a set of discussion agreements.

7:09 And that may seem kind of warm and fuzzy, but in reality, I

7:14 think it's a crucial component to having the kinds of

7:18 conversations that we both want and need to have to achieve

7:22 whatever goals we have. And so I, I bring discussion

7:25 agreements forward, no matter how seemingly benign the

7:28 conversation might be. I mean, it could be about what a

7:31 park should look like or, you know, what children should learn

7:35 in preschool or something. That's, that seems very happy

7:39 and non controversial and neutral.

7:42 But the reality is that that for many of us, even from a variety

7:47 of different cultural backgrounds, weren't, we're not

7:50 necessarily predisposed to communicate fully authentically

7:56 without certain guardrails being in place.

7:59 You know, we may have grown up in households where we don't

8:01 speak until certain other people speak, and even then only speak

8:05 in in exceptional circumstances. Or perhaps we were brought up in

8:09 a setting where we were only heard if our voice was raised or

8:13 if we really asserted ourselves. And so those discussion

8:16 agreements really, in my mind, are the foundation for any of

8:21 the conversations that I help facilitate to to begin at all.

8:24 I mean, I can't really start the conversation other than welcome.

8:27 And I'm glad you're here without having those discussion

8:31 agreements in place. Sometimes I bring them to the

8:34 group and they can amend them. Other times let them script

8:37 themselves. But I really look for an

8:40 affirmative. Yes, I'm, I'm willing to abide

8:43 by these agreements and I, and I call them that versus ground

8:46 rules because to me ground rules are given from sort of on high

8:51 from position of power. And I'm, I'm trying to cultivate

8:54 a different relationship with the groups that I work with.

8:57 They're all peers on the same level.

8:59 So hopefully that answers your question.

9:01 I mean, I think it really is not something that we can take for

9:04 granted at all that people will feel safe and comfortable and

9:08 willing to share vulnerably and authentically without some card

9:12 rails in place at the beginning. Yeah, I like that.

9:15 You just bring it to reality. Conflict, if there is going to

9:20 be, even if everyone is exactly the same, there will still be

9:24 conflict. And like I know a lot of people

9:28 who don't like conflict so they just end up not saying anything,

9:33 but that doesn't mean that they are on board.

9:36 I also know that from experience and just from observation.

9:40 It's worse to someone's work, to someone's life, to their mental

9:44 well-being. So what's your take on Silent

9:48 Polaris? That's such a good question

9:52 because I think it, it can be so differently interpreted in

9:56 different contexts with different people of different

9:59 power levels and genders and cultures.

10:01 I mean, I think there are certain settings in which

10:03 silence is, is, as the phrase is, you know, golden.

10:07 And it is affirming and it is reflective of the fact that I

10:11 couldn't have said it better than what was just said and

10:14 really affirm it. And a lot of times we're looking

10:16 for non verbal cues alongside that silence of something

10:19 sitting, you know, totally stone faced.

10:22 That's different than, you know, nodding or closing their eyes or

10:25 sitting back and kind of reflecting in that way.

10:28 But I think that it's important to say that silence could

10:31 actually indicate some level of support.

10:35 But I don't have anything to add to this, that it really, this

10:38 person either speaks for me or they meaningfully got across

10:42 something that I couldn't better articulate.

10:45 Then of course, though, there are times where it's a, it's a

10:47 fear based silence. You know, I'm, I'm silent

10:50 because I'm very afraid of the repercussions if I, if I speak

10:55 my truth. And again, I think you made an,

10:58 A really salient point before. Even if I'm dealing with people

11:02 with whom I have some affinity or closeness or mutual respect

11:07 or trust, that doesn't mean I will always be able to be fully

11:13 honest with them or fully vulnerable with them or share

11:15 something that they may not want to hear that takes a long time

11:19 to get comfortable doing. And so the silence could be a

11:24 reflection of how uncomfortable that person thinks that they

11:29 will feel or already feels before saying anything about

11:33 saying something. So I talk about this a lot when

11:36 I, when I teach students about facilitating and and mediating

11:40 that it's important to check silences that you, you, you

11:44 don't need to make an assumption one way or the other.

11:47 You don't need to guess, you know.

11:48 So if someone is, is silent, I might say to them in a small

11:52 enough group, I might say, you know, Karen, I just wanted to

11:54 check in with you. I hadn't heard from you in, in

11:56 quite a bit. I want to make sure you're,

11:58 you're OK and that you feel as if you've had opportunity to, to

12:03 be heard or if you'd like to share something.

12:05 But some people, no matter how safe I think I've made them

12:08 feel, I still don't want to sort of buzz in and raise their hand.

12:12 They, they would like to be sort of individually addressed for

12:15 one reason or another. And so that could be all that

12:18 it's about. It could just be sort of

12:20 standing on ceremony and waiting for the, the time when they're

12:24 being directly addressed. Or it could be, I don't know

12:28 what to say. I'd rather speak about it

12:29 privately or I feel like my my views have been well

12:33 represented, but but checking the silence to me is hugely

12:37 important because we all use silences and we often use them

12:42 in in radically different ways, even in the same.

12:44 Conversation. Yeah.

12:45 Like, for example, with something that easily happened

12:49 in household setting. Let's say someone made you a

12:53 dish and you don't love it, but you're a guest in the party.

13:01 Karen, were you in my dining room the other night?

13:04 Because this actually happened. This actually happened.

13:07 I I it's funny. I, I cooked the dish.

13:11 I had, I had cooked the dish and I yeah, I had, I had cooked the

13:14 dish and I could just see my wife wasn't like gushing over

13:18 it, you know, She wasn't like, Oh my gosh, this is the best

13:21 thing I've ever eaten, which she often does.

13:24 And I was just like, you don't like it.

13:27 You're, you're, you really just like it.

13:29 And it turned out that like it, it sort of grew on her, like she

13:32 had the first bite and then a few more bites and then she said

13:34 she really liked it. But no, I think that is.

13:37 That's a perfect illustration of how this can be construed.

13:41 Yeah, because if you're being brutally honest, anyone

13:47 thoughtful enough will kind of think about, oh, how is this

13:50 person going to take it? And there's that's why there's

13:54 something called white lies, because you don't feel

13:57 comfortable being completely honest.

13:59 However, in this cooking situation, what if this person

14:06 is trying to be better at cooking and by not telling the

14:09 person, you're hindering their growth?

14:14 Well, and, and as you were talking, I mean, that first of

14:16 all, that's a wonderful, you know, thread to pull on.

14:19 There is, you know, we don't necessarily know what each

14:23 other's aims are in the communication.

14:26 I mean, there's a, a well known theoretical framework called the

14:29 lens model, which basically says that you and I are in the same

14:31 conversation and can experience it in completely different ways

14:34 based on a variety of different considerations.

14:37 But that notion of a lens on a camera taking 2 completely

14:40 different pictures of the same scene.

14:43 And so I think that when we're, you know, when we're, when we're

14:49 listening and we hear a silence, we, we really have to to be

14:56 mindful that we don't know for certain what it means or may

15:01 have guesses based on prior experience either with that

15:03 person or with other people using the same tactic.

15:06 But I think it would be unreasonable to think that we

15:08 could always be certain of the meaning that that person is

15:13 trying to have by by utilizing that silence.

15:16 And I, and I think something else that is perhaps somewhat

15:20 more problematic in the US maybe than other cultures is that

15:23 we're very, we're very instant in our, in our culture.

15:29 We're very, I need to respond immediately.

15:30 You hear about, you know, people my, my kids age, you know, if

15:34 they're, if they're texting and they don't immediately see the

15:36 three dots, you know, that they must be, you know, in trouble

15:39 with the person that's not responding.

15:42 And so, you know, there's, I think a, a predilection in parts

15:47 of our world to think that that silence indicates, you know,

15:52 distrust, upset, you know, feeling upset.

15:55 And so, so those checks are are really vital.

16:00 Like I am way older than teenagers but I do this thing

16:07 but no. Me too, me too.

16:08 There's like huge value in not responding immediately because

16:14 you're buying yourself time to think through something more

16:17 clearly before hitting send, which is another aspect of

16:22 thoughtfulness because if you just refunds quickly, you

16:25 haven't thought it through, it didn't read the way you want it,

16:29 for example. Yeah, and I wanted to, I wanted

16:31 to comment on one other thing you said when you use the phrase

16:35 brutal honesty, which of course we've all heard and and used.

16:39 And I find it so interesting. I've never done a deep dive on

16:42 the etymology of, of why that phrase came into, into popular

16:47 use, but I, I, I really, I really wish it, it weren't so

16:52 because I think that it obviously takes something that

16:54 many of us value and prize, like honesty associated with

16:59 something that most of us want to stay far away from brutality.

17:02 And so I mean, of course, I understand the deeper meaning

17:07 that, that often times we're conveying something to someone

17:09 that they may not want to hear. And so in some way, it may feel

17:15 offensive or it may just feel unwanted, but I think that when

17:19 we it, it's just really important to stay away from

17:22 binaries there, you know, that that there can be a form of

17:25 honesty that is, is not in any way brutal.

17:28 And I think most of us have probably grown up in a in a

17:32 situation where it's sort of polarized to either avoidance or

17:36 brutal honesty or sort of keeping a brave face, if you

17:40 will, versus letting your guard down completely and just going

17:44 off. And there's obviously quite a

17:46 spectrum in between those two extremes.

17:49 Yeah, the I thank you for pointing out the IT doesn't have

17:54 to be binary aspect because you either avoid conflict because

17:58 you feel uncomfortable or you are just hurting someone.

18:01 But what we're saying here is not black and white like that

18:06 and there's benefit in being honest, long term benefits.

18:10 So let's dive into some of that. So I know you advocate being

18:14 thoughtful in communication. Let's start with how would you

18:18 define thoughtfulness? It's a great question.

18:22 I mean, I, I hate to be too literal and I'll try not to

18:26 define it with a part of the word, but I do, I do I do right?

18:32 But I do think the word itself says a lot of what I, what I

18:35 would say that I'm communicating in such a way that I'm carefully

18:39 considering what I'm saying and how I'm saying it.

18:44 The medium, the timing and the recipient, you know, and, and

18:48 there's a lot there. You know, I think many of us,

18:52 and especially folks younger than than us have grown up

18:56 heavily reliant on mediums that didn't exist, you know, when we

18:59 were kids. And so there's, I think then a

19:04 tendency to communicate certain things across platforms like

19:08 text messaging and social media that we used to only talk about

19:11 face to face that we used to only do on a sit down

19:14 conversation, for example. And then we've also entered a

19:17 world in which we may go months, if not years without seeing

19:20 people that we work closely with or even relatives that we're

19:23 close to, but we still feel close to them because of modern

19:26 communication. So when I think of thoughtful

19:29 communication, I just, I, I see it as a multi step process of

19:35 questions that I need to ask myself before I actually

19:39 communicate whatever it is that I'm going to communicate.

19:41 And again, it's, it's the substance, it's the way in which

19:45 I'm going to convey that, it's the medium, it's the timing.

19:48 And then it's whatever I may know or discern about how that

19:52 person is going to receive my communication and any

19:55 customization that I'll use as a result.

19:59 Let's think of an example. Let's say you have to.

20:02 Message someone about a topic. How do you yourself go through

20:06 those steps? It's really interesting.

20:09 I mean, I, I actually went through something here just a

20:12 short while ago, a week or two ago.

20:14 And it it was about a sort of a situation, a social situation

20:20 where I had felt hurt by the behavior of the other person.

20:24 And the other person is someone that I think of as a friend, but

20:27 we're not, it's not one of my best friends.

20:29 We just haven't spent that much time together.

20:31 And so I really spent, I would say a few weeks even after the

20:36 incident occurred, thinking about actually whether I was

20:40 going to communicate, much less what I was going to communicate.

20:45 And, and in this case, not communicating wouldn't appear as

20:48 ghosting. And I mean, just that wasn't the

20:50 nature of it. So what I ended up deciding to

20:53 do was composing an e-mail to him.

20:56 And I asked myself, what is it that I want to convey?

21:01 And what I really wanted to convey to him is that I want to

21:04 be his friend. And that that I could only be

21:07 his friend if I was honest with him about the way that I felt in

21:12 this interaction. And that that would hopefully,

21:15 in that spirit, my sharing it would hopefully bring us closer

21:18 together. And so I didn't sugarcoat what

21:21 it was that I was upset about, but I also didn't curse at him

21:24 and I didn't call him names and I didn't say he was a bad

21:27 person. I just said here's what took

21:30 place and here's what I felt. And, and I'm, and I'm sharing

21:36 this with you in the hopes that it will lead to a better

21:38 friendship. And, and his reply was

21:40 relatively quick and extremely thoughtful and concessionary

21:44 apologized. He understood why I was upset

21:48 and I feel great about the exchange.

21:50 So I don't share that obviously to boast about, oh, I'm Mr.

21:53 Super Communicator, but more just to say that I don't think

21:56 the, the me of 10 years ago would have gone through all of

22:00 that. I think it's taken both my

22:03 studies, my work, but just also the maturation process to

22:06 understand how crucial all of those steps are 'cause I, I

22:09 could have texted him right after it happened and I, I think

22:12 I would have been really embarrassed later on by what I

22:18 might have said I. Think it could?

22:20 Have been easily misconstrued because in such a short message

22:23 you wouldn't have been able to see my face or or air my

22:26 intonation. And so it it took a while for me

22:30 to kind of get my arms around what I even wanted to say.

22:33 And then the, the best way for me to say it and e-mail turned

22:37 out to be the best way because it just gave me a little bit of

22:39 space that I think I I needed to take my time, script the message

22:46 and deliver it in a sensitive way.

22:49 Well I'm really glad that you did what you did in this

22:53 situation. Well you being an expert in

22:56 communication I expect nothing less.

22:59 But it's happened so often, I can think of many examples of

23:03 friends I just walked away from instead of just talking it out

23:08 with them. Like I just it.

23:11 It's probably, it probably appears like ghosting.

23:13 But I think we were drifting apart anyway.

23:16 But there were reasons why we drifted apart.

23:19 But I never either have the courage to face it or I was

23:24 being the silent polite person because coming to terms with it

23:30 will inevitably show how I think of that person.

23:34 So having skills like that, I think it's really important

23:39 because it probably helped you appear to be more of a

23:43 reasonable, calm person who can analyze the situation and take

23:48 some like appropriate actions for it.

23:52 I, I do think though, it's important to say that first of

23:56 all, this has to be something that connects with your essence,

23:59 with who you really are. The e-mail that I wrote was not

24:02 out of character for me. It's the kind of thing that I

24:04 probably have written in the past or have been on the

24:07 receiving end of, or, you know, just communicate in that way

24:10 regularly. So it has to come from a, an

24:12 authentic place. And, and so I wouldn't want a

24:15 listener to this to think, oh, I need to really learn e-mail

24:18 better or something, you know? Just every single problematic

24:21 relationship. Right, right.

24:24 I mean, and, and that's the other thing, I think I knew this

24:27 person well enough to feel safe in sharing this with him.

24:32 Some relationships take on a level of toxicity where it may

24:36 not be a threat to our physical safety, but it could be a threat

24:39 to our psychological safety, our emotional and mental safety.

24:43 And it's OK. It is perfectly OK to just

24:47 disengage and say, I don't, I don't feel safe here.

24:49 Just the same way we would run away if we were in a dangerous,

24:53 physically dangerous situation. So I, I, I say that not just to,

24:57 you know, give comfort to, to people like you who, you know,

24:59 I'm sure that, but to say that avoiding conflict can in fact be

25:04 the most prudent approach in, in certain circumstances.

25:09 But I think when we become, you know, 100% dependent on it, then

25:12 we we probably cause ourself more difficulty than we than we

25:16 should have to deal with. Yeah.

25:18 And being sometimes or situations that you cannot just

25:22 walk away from, for example, if you're a leader in a company,

25:27 you can, you can't just walk away from it.

25:30 You have to address it to the, let's say your direct report.

25:34 Sometimes you just have to be honest and if things left unsaid

25:40 and one day it's going to explode or worse things will

25:44 happen. So having this skill is very

25:47 important for anyone in leadership position or just any

25:51 professionals really 'cause it's not just manager to direct

25:55 reports, it could be the other way too.

25:58 No question. And I want to be cognizant of

26:02 your listenership being broad. So I won't give a, an example

26:05 from a particular perspective, political or otherwise.

26:08 But I do think we certainly see plenty of occasions where an

26:13 apology or just a, a statement of accountability dramatically

26:17 enhances the, the trust placed in a, in a particular leader or

26:23 increases that person's followers or just strengthens

26:27 kind of the, the mission around what that person is, is trying

26:30 to lead people to do, while at the same time perhaps depicting

26:33 themselves in a lesser light. And so it's a, it's a strange

26:37 paradox in that way where we could be admitting something

26:42 that, that we did that was seriously flawed and wrong, that

26:46 that was a, a terrible decision. And so at least in that moment,

26:51 if not for a while, people may hold us in in lower esteem as an

26:55 individual, but perhaps it will preserve the cause for which

27:00 we've been leading or, or elevate that 'cause even if we

27:03 do that. Yeah, you brought up the lower

27:07 position. That's something I want to dive

27:10 into as well as, you know, thinking about the person you're

27:14 talking to coming from their perspective.

27:18 A lot of the times I think that's interpreted as, you know,

27:20 giving up control almost like, why do I have to be thoughtful

27:25 of your feeling? And I know a lot of people are

27:28 resistant to that just simply because of this mentality.

27:33 How would you, how do you reframe that, let's say, if

27:36 you're teaching this to your students?

27:38 Well, it's interesting because I teach in a way that I think is

27:42 consistent with some of what it is that I am teaching.

27:45 Which means that when I teach a course on facilitative

27:49 leadership, the lessons I'm trying to impart to the students

27:52 are that that leaders can be effective even if they are

27:57 listening very deeply to what their followers want them to do.

28:02 That you don't have to just be a, you know, a, a person who,

28:06 who issues edicts from on eye and the followers all, you know,

28:10 run out to, to carry it out. And so as a result of that, I

28:15 opened myself up to some extent to the students influencing the

28:20 way in which I teach the class. Even I've had them help decide

28:25 the kind of assignments we might have in certain circumstances.

28:29 And that's not a, a strategy that will work for every

28:32 professor or every elite. But I, I guess in a small way,

28:36 what I'm trying to convey to them is I recognize that there

28:39 is some power imbalance here, that I control the grade that

28:42 you're getting in this class and that that can affect your

28:45 future. Then there's not much I can do

28:46 about that. But I'd at least like to share

28:49 power, to give you some power so that you feel invested in what

28:53 we're trying to do here. Because especially in a

28:56 university setting with larger classes and so forth, it can be

28:59 very difficult for students to feel that way, to feel invested

29:03 in their own learning if they're one of dozens, if not hundreds

29:07 of, of students in a, in a classroom.

29:10 And so when it comes to communicating with someone who's

29:13 at a lower level, I think most managers, most supervisors of

29:17 other people would probably like well performing employees to

29:23 stay and maybe to get, I would advise you to take over for them

29:26 someday. Obviously, if they're

29:28 performance issues, that's it's own matter.

29:30 But if someone is performing well, I think most of us would

29:34 like to retain them and and promote them.

29:36 And it's very costly when we lose people like that.

29:40 And I one way to retain people. Speaking from my own experience,

29:43 one thing that kept me in and basically the same role with the

29:47 same boss for almost 8 years was the feeling that I had a strong

29:53 level of influence over his thinking that he would rarely,

29:57 if ever tell me, I'm, I'm ordering you to do this.

30:01 And most often ask me how I felt about something, or I could

30:04 propose something to him and he would be very open minded about

30:07 it. And so I, I think that's a,

30:09 that's a critical piece of retention for most

30:13 organizations. And, and I think the same can

30:15 be, especially when you're asking people to volunteer or to

30:17 give money or to give time, they need to feel as if they are a

30:21 part of something that they're helping to, to create.

30:24 And so giving them that agency, giving them that respect will, I

30:28 think, engender those those stronger bonds.

30:31 How do you think you were able to establish this influence

30:37 besides them feeling vested in the process?

30:42 I think a couple of things helped.

30:44 One thing that I do that I'm told is is fairly uncommon is I

30:48 when I get my list of students for the coming semester, I reach

30:52 out and ask them to to zoom with me for a few minutes so that I

30:56 can get to know them ahead of time.

30:58 And, you know, not all of them do it and I don't, I don't

31:00 require it, but I do find that it makes them feel seen, that it

31:06 is something that will lead them to recognize that I'll notice

31:09 when they're not there as well as when they're there.

31:12 I mean, I've certainly been in situations where students have

31:14 had prolonged unexpected absences.

31:17 And I or my TA or both of us have reached out to say, we just

31:21 want to see how you're doing. And I, I don't want to act as if

31:24 we're in this super stratosphere of, of professors.

31:29 I'm. Not your other parents.

31:32 But, but I think that they, especially when you attend a

31:35 large institution, my, my university is very large.

31:39 I, I think the, the default position is, well, I'm just one

31:41 of, of literally thousands. And so I don't know that I am

31:46 really seen in the same way in the university as I am in my

31:52 family or in my organization or my church or my House of

31:55 worship. So I, I think it's just setting

31:59 a tone from the jump of personal attention that I can keep up for

32:06 the entire semester with someone if they, you know, stay engaged

32:09 and sometimes they withdraw and I make attempts.

32:12 But of course it's a, it's a voluntary thing.

32:14 You know, they have to have the will to stay engaged and be able

32:17 to balance all the student has to balance.

32:20 So it's, it's certainly not a, a process that only I can

32:25 influence, but hopefully through a combination of reaching out

32:30 and asking them to, to visit with me and, and giving

32:33 opportunities for that across the entire semester, they at

32:36 least feel that I'm listening to them.

32:39 And, and there's nothing more important to people in conflict

32:41 at least than to feel heard. And so whether we're in conflict

32:45 or not, I think students, whether it's their grade or the

32:49 assignment or or whatever, wanna feel heard just like anybody

32:53 else. The uncommon practice that you

32:56 do, asking them to zoom with you for a few minutes, that's like

33:00 having a one-on-one with someone.

33:03 If you're just joining the company and you have a team of

33:05 what, 20 or however big your team is and you have one on set

33:09 up, one on ones with them. I see that a lot in manager

33:12 training or like articles about effective management.

33:16 I see that a lot. So there's this value that is

33:20 you can't really replicate in other forms of communication

33:24 and. It was something that was

33:25 missing from my college education.

33:27 You know, I really didn't form relationships with the

33:31 professors that I had. And that's partly on me.

33:33 I don't want to in any way suggest that it's all their

33:35 responsibility and they have plenty of obligations outside of

33:38 just being my teachers. But when I went to my college

33:42 reunion last spring, I, I realized that there weren't

33:45 professors that I, I wanted to go and, and visit with.

33:48 And that, that saddened me because, you know, whether it

33:51 was my perception of their lack of accessibility, my lack of

33:55 effort, their lack of effort, it, it didn't come across that

33:59 they wanted to be in relationship in that way.

34:02 And so I, I think we have to recognize that in higher Ed

34:05 that, that students don't, don't know that as an obvious thing.

34:09 And then in, as you say, in other contexts, people may have

34:13 come from a place where there were no close personal bonds and

34:16 it was strictly accomplishing the goals of the, of the

34:18 organization. And then others came from a, a

34:21 place where you knew everything about each other.

34:23 And it was, it was very interpersonally intimate.

34:26 And there's not one right or wrong way, but there will be

34:29 people coming from all over that spectrum.

34:32 And so at least creating a circumstance where someone knows

34:36 that they can potentially share some of that at least privately

34:41 and get some support, I think that's that's worthwhile.

34:44 Yeah, and you build trust too, in the process.

34:47 Like if you have a relationship, having trust is such a lubricant

34:51 in everything that people can do.

34:53 And I went to UC Berkeley in California.

34:57 So my my business One O 1 class or BA10, I think it's 700

35:04 people. So it they have a lot of big

35:07 classes and I didn't think it was an option to build

35:10 relationship with professors because it's like 1 to 700.

35:12 Who are you? But like being who I am

35:15 nowadays, I would wonder what would have happened to me if I

35:18 were, well, times were different.

35:20 Maybe professors weren't used to this one to one form of

35:25 communication either, but I might have been like even more

35:29 successful. Well, I, I, I don't know, but I

35:33 do know that when I worked in municipal government, I was one

35:37 of, you know, probably 12 or 13,000 employees.

35:41 And those employees were overseen by a city manager,

35:43 which is a, a fairly unique American kind of institution.

35:47 And I'm still in, in relationship with that city

35:52 manager. I mean, my, my boss had

35:55 certainly cultivated a relationship.

35:57 And so I to some degree could ride his coattails, but he also

36:01 the manager himself, I think gave off a sense that I don't

36:05 really care what level title you have.

36:08 I'm, I'm potentially interested in your input and, and your

36:12 influence of. There was one meeting where I

36:15 was asked to present to a room full of, of city executives.

36:18 And I remember there was one particular point that several of

36:22 them questioned in what I had presented and I had advocated

36:26 for a different position than theirs.

36:29 And he went with my position. And I haven't forgotten that he

36:33 could have easily just closed ranks and gone with what his,

36:36 his closest advisors had said. And it, it wasn't a hugely

36:39 consequential thing, but it was definitely meaningful to me.

36:43 And so here I was, one of, of thousands.

36:46 And he made me feel seen and I, I still connect with them went

36:50 mainly for that reason. You know, it's not easy for a

36:53 person overseeing a large workforce or a large

36:56 organization to do that, but it it really does distinguish a lot

37:00 of of leaders of our time. Yeah.

37:03 And something that I was thinking, like when you open

37:06 yourself up to your constituents, your students or

37:09 your colleagues and just listening to them, people will

37:13 think, oh, he's a nice person. She's a nice person and nice.

37:18 The word nice has a lot of meanings.

37:20 Stereotypical meaning might be like easygoing, agreeable, could

37:26 be a pushover in some circumstances.

37:29 What is nice truly to you? Well, I, I, I, I really

37:34 appreciate the unpacking of it the way you just did, because I

37:37 do think especially I think it can be very gendered and, and

37:41 sexist in the way it's interpreted.

37:44 I think, I think women are often unfairly painted with a brush.

37:48 Like you were talking about men, men maybe to some similar

37:51 extent, but I really, I really connected back to thoughtfulness

37:54 and to kindness to me is more predicated on respect, on

38:00 consideration of who it is that I'm behaving towards or

38:04 communicating with rather than just saying things that are

38:08 complimentary or praising praise, you know, praising the

38:12 person. I mean, I'm sure that that the

38:14 dictionary may think of it as just helping someone with

38:18 something they need or, or saying something to them that

38:22 that would make them feel better.

38:24 And that may be the the case. But to me, especially when I'm

38:28 thinking about my role as a parent, the the few times that I

38:31 really intervene with my kids, it's to make sure they

38:34 understand the difference between the validity of feeling

38:37 whatever they feel. So they can be angry, they can

38:40 be sad, they can be, you know, nervous and the most effective

38:43 ways to convey that. And you can very much be nice

38:46 while you're angry. And this is a huge, huge

38:50 personal journey for me. I mean, I've had really

38:54 difficult experiences with the expression of my own anger over

38:58 the years. And so I've, I've had to go on a

39:00 journey for myself, say nothing of what I'm trying to teach my

39:03 kids. But I, I think that I would hate

39:06 for someone to completely disconnect niceness from any of

39:10 what we've tended to call the negative emotions, which I, I

39:13 completely disagree with. I mean, I don't emotions are

39:16 positive or negative, but I think that niceness really can

39:20 connect more broadly with just consideration of the other

39:25 person and how they will react and what they may need

39:29 emotionally in a particular moment.

39:32 And especially if the other person is upset.

39:35 What they may need is is almost nothing other than my just

39:40 listening, my being there. We go back to the silences,

39:43 right? I mean, there are times where I

39:45 can think of where I've needed to express something to my wife

39:50 or friend or someone else I trust.

39:53 And I don't want them to tell me how to fix it.

39:55 I don't want them to tell me if I'm right or wrong.

39:58 I, I just, I want them to, to hear me out.

40:03 And that is really nice when they do that.

40:05 That's my feeling of that's when I feel as if someone is nice to

40:09 me in that, in that way. So I just, I would hate for

40:12 someone to kind of limit it to oh, this, this greeting card or

40:16 oh, this gift or, you know. The smile, I mean, of course

40:21 those are nice things. It's just, it's just I think

40:23 that that it can encompass A broader array of considerate

40:28 behavior. Yeah.

40:30 And it ties back to what you said in the very, very

40:33 beginning, the checking with the other person, like what you

40:37 mentioned in the example is checking for silence, but in

40:40 this case, checking the person who is feeling emotions like

40:45 what they need, what would be helpful for them.

40:49 It's also very useful and also establish you as someone who's

40:54 like reasonable. It's the only way I can come to

40:56 mind that comes to mind. But it's more like, you see

40:59 bigger picture or like you can ground me.

41:03 And that's again, another like very important skill in today's

41:07 world because there's conflict all over, different opinions all

41:11 over. Anything can become like.

41:13 That's why rage bait is a word in 2025.

41:19 Yeah, I do think that that also the needs of the communicators

41:23 can evolve even in the space of one communication or one

41:27 conversation, meaning that I might start a conversation with

41:30 someone with the understanding that I'm there to listen to let

41:34 them get out what they need to get out and so forth.

41:37 And then whether it's with a silence or a gap, either

41:41 something they said and I feel as if I have a little bit of an

41:45 opening, I won't, I won't rush into that and, and start

41:48 advising them when they told me just to listen, but I might ask

41:52 permission to shift my role a little bit.

41:55 And I, I, I'm part of a men's group and, and sometimes there's

41:58 kind of a, a framing where we're just sharing, but then men want

42:03 to respond in some supportive way to other men sharing

42:07 something. And we always check.

42:10 Would you mind if I asked you a question or, or could I share

42:13 some perspective with you on what you just shared?

42:17 Because it's not always welcome and it's not always something

42:21 someone is prepared to hear. But I don't think we have to

42:25 sort of ossify ourselves into a particular role as just, well,

42:29 we're always the one that they're gonna cause.

42:31 It's exhausting to be on the receiving end of venting from

42:36 the same person over and over again.

42:38 And so we, we can and should establish some of our own

42:42 boundaries and limits when it comes to that.

42:45 But we can evolve our role, even in the span of one conversation

42:48 in a way that I think would still be relatively well

42:51 received by the person if we ask their permission.

42:54 Yeah, it works on the flip side too.

42:56 It's tiring to be getting advice all the time, like solicited or

43:03 unsolicited. Well, most of the time it's

43:06 unsolicited, but it's tiring for that person too.

43:09 So then it's important to check the other person when it it's

43:13 like establishing boundaries, establishing this guardrail of

43:16 how we can make this conversation more productive.

43:18 Absolutely. And again, I think one of the

43:21 trickiest things about this is just all of the assumptions that

43:25 we make as we communicate or as we prepare to communicate.

43:28 You know, we we've known someone for years and so we think we

43:32 know how they're going to react. And so we self censor ourselves,

43:35 for example, we don't say things because we think we know how

43:37 they're going to react. And I've obviously known my

43:40 parents my whole life and, and still to this day, sometimes

43:43 they react in surprising ways to things that I say.

43:48 And my wife and I learn different things about each

43:51 other's communication, despite being married for as long as we

43:54 have and the kids. So I think they, especially as

43:58 they've become kind of tweens and adolescents, they're finding

44:02 diverse ways to say what they're feeling and to even feel

44:06 different things. And so we have to let go of most

44:09 of these assumptions, especially when they're tied to a person's

44:11 gender or race or culture or role in a company or an

44:16 organization. You know, I I was driving my son

44:19 and his friends to basketball practice and I heard them

44:22 yesterday talking about how the the most skilled player on the

44:27 team speaks in a certain way to the coach that they think is not

44:31 appropriate. And I'm not there.

44:33 So I don't know exactly what they're talking about.

44:35 And it may be that they that I would agree with them if I were

44:38 there, but there's so much to unpack there.

44:42 It's like, oh, you, you must do everything exactly the way that

44:45 you're told to do it by someone in that role of authority that

44:49 you can't question anything or that if you raise your voice, it

44:53 must be a sign of disrespect or, or whatever.

44:55 You know, I don't, I don't know what that is, but I just know

44:58 that they were all convinced. They were certain that it had

45:02 crossed a line. And so to me, it's really

45:04 important to unpack those assumptions as you're evaluating

45:07 the way you're communicating or being communicated with.

45:10 It's the not having assumptions, it's very important.

45:14 It's just another component in effective communication and

45:19 almost regulating your own thoughts 'cause if you jump to

45:23 conclusion, you already formed this opinion and it will guide

45:27 you one way or another. Rightfully or wrongly, that is

45:30 not productive and that's not the best way to approach

45:35 problems with just a 1 sided view.

45:37 All right, so there's so many things we can talk about when it

45:41 comes to being thoughtful, effective communication.

45:44 But this is just like the surface of how we can help

45:48 ourselves in our daily relationship with people, how we

45:51 can establish ourselves as a trusted partner, establish more

45:56 credibility and just being like appear more calm and reasonable.

46:02 So I probably will have to invite you back for like a

46:06 follow up episode. Certainly would be my pleasure.

46:09 Before we go, I'd love to play a game with you rapid fire

46:14 question round so we can know a little bit more about you and

46:19 your like way of thinking. So sure, niceness without

46:23 thoughtfulness is blank. Not a thing.

46:29 Not a thing, House of. I, I just don't know that that

46:34 you can be nice to someone in a way that doesn't require some

46:38 thought. I mean, I suppose it become, it

46:39 can become reflexive and, and so maybe it requires less thought

46:43 for some people, but I think knowing how to be nice in a way

46:49 that will land with the other person requires some thought.

46:52 So it just it doesn't feel very viable to be nice without

46:58 thoughtfulness behind it. Very, like very.

47:01 All your answers are very holistic a.

47:03 Little too a little too meta sometimes.

47:07 No, look at that. That's important.

47:09 That's what that's a core theme of mind blind to is to be

47:13 considered more than one aspect of things.

47:15 OK. How would you resolve conflicts

47:18 like 1 bathroom for four people in a hotel room?

47:24 Oh, the, the old, the old resources based conflict.

47:30 Well, I mean, I think that the, the basic thing is to just

47:33 really understand what everybody needs from the bathroom.

47:36 Some people will need it just for a quick but frequent trips

47:40 in there. They have that kind of need.

47:42 Other people need a concentrated period of time where they're not

47:45 going to be walked in on because they're showering and doing all

47:49 that stuff. And so I think it, it comes down

47:52 to recognizing what people need from the bathroom in that

47:56 setting one night or whatever, and then making sure that we

48:01 have some guidelines around it so that people understand what

48:05 the shared agreements are, shared expectations are about

48:08 it. And, and what's what's an

48:10 alternative? Because I mean, I think one

48:12 thing that that often becomes an obstacle, becomes a hurdle is

48:15 when we just assume that what we've come up with this airtight

48:19 and nothing can challenge it. You know, what if, what if the

48:22 bathroom becomes dys not functioning?

48:25 What if some key piece of it is not working, you know, and, and

48:28 what if there's a, a physical like urgent need?

48:31 What do we do then? So just having contingencies, I

48:35 think is, is is important, but that's hey that that's a very

48:40 universal scenario for us to be in for.

48:44 Sure. Yeah.

48:45 And there's also something called Just get one more yes,

48:49 just just fine and. A Right Expand the pie, as we

48:52 say. Yeah, what's 1 sign that you're

48:55 avoiding discomfort instead of being kind.

48:59 Well, I know that I feel it physically, so I don't know if

49:02 this is true for everybody listening, but I can feel it in

49:06 my like upper back, like some, some knots will develop or maybe

49:11 like not in my stomach. You know, the way people talk

49:14 about that. So some of it to me is very

49:17 visceral, very, you know, physical, like I'm, I'm

49:21 uncomfortable and it's not because of something I ate or a,

49:24 or a fall or something like that.

49:27 I think it could also show up in the way we were talking about

49:31 before in, in, in a silence that we don't understand or that we

49:35 don't like someone's not engaging with us the way that

49:40 we're used to them engaging with us and, and that feels not

49:43 great. So I think that it, it doesn't

49:45 have to be the kind of thing that involves a lot of, of deep

49:50 processing. It could just be like, gosh,

49:52 normally I talk to this person every day or I check in with

49:55 them pretty often and we haven't talked in three or four days or

49:59 I'm in the room with them and everything is fine in terms of

50:02 our different roles and what we're doing.

50:06 But I'm feeling this thing, this combination of symptoms, those

50:10 are things that I think could at least sound an alarm to say,

50:15 hey, maybe I need to to check on this.

50:17 This feels like it's not going exactly the way I I think it

50:20 should go, or it's it's trending in the wrong direction.

50:23 Yeah, it's your intuition sometimes that's a not.

50:27 That's a, not. Yeah.

50:30 What's 1 phrase that people say that sounds nice but actually

50:34 caused harm? I'm sorry if you were offended

50:37 or I'm sorry if you were upset or I'm sorry if.

50:41 Interesting. You know, I, I think that, I

50:43 think that the challenge for me with that is, and I, and I

50:47 actually used to set this trap, not on purpose, but

50:51 inadvertently. There's a, a religious holiday

50:54 that we observe where each year, once a year, we're supposed to

50:57 take an accounting of, of what we may have done wrong and, and

51:00 take accountability. And a lot of times I would say

51:03 to someone, Hey, I'm sorry for anything that I did this past

51:06 year that that upset you. And over time, I just, I began

51:10 to see that as meaningless. It's like I'm not, I'm not

51:13 facing anything that, you know, if, if hurt the relationship.

51:19 And so when you convey the, what I just said, if you convey, you

51:25 know, I'm sorry you were hurt. I mean, I, I, I, I understand

51:30 the, the, the intention there, but it's, it's sort of putting

51:33 the burden. It's like you had this thing,

51:37 it's sort of your responsibility and fault.

51:39 I'm just like trying to kind of put a Band-Aid on it as opposed

51:42 to I'm sorry that what I did was upsetting and this and it's the

51:48 specific thing. So I think the, the combination

51:51 of the vagueness, but also just the the way in which it it, it

51:54 sort of seems to shift responsibility back onto that

51:56 other person. I think could really leave them

51:59 feeling more isolated and and not not appreciated in the way

52:03 they want to be. Yeah, it sounds like you're not

52:05 taking accountability for what you've done to.

52:08 Passing the buck? Yeah, absolutely.

52:09 I think that's where it gets across.

52:11 Yeah. Well, thank you very much for

52:13 sharing a lot of your experience.

52:15 And just what do you know of like being in this field of, you

52:21 know, communication, conflict mediation, your previous

52:25 experience witnessing how people can be more effective in their

52:30 communication, especially when more than one party is involved.

52:33 And it's really important for us all to have skills like that,

52:38 especially many people are looking for jobs.

52:41 And this will help you in like even job search situation.

52:45 You don't have to be nice in your interview, just saying all

52:49 the nice things to hear, not praising your interviewer, but

52:53 just being like truthful and just being transparent.

52:59 That scores a lot of points at interviews too.

53:02 Agreed. As someone who's both applied

53:04 for jobs and evaluated people for jobs, I think you're right.

53:07 It does score a lot of points. Yeah, Well, thank you very much,

53:10 Karen. Thank you very much for having

53:12 me on. Right, thank you very much.

53:17 Thanks for listening to this episode of Mind One.

53:20 If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to follow and share

53:23 it with anyone who needs to hear it.

53:25 And let's keep the conversation going.

53:26 Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment.

53:30 Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's

53:33 continue to blend our minds and discover what's possible.