The Thoughtful Advantage in a Reactive World - Larry Schooler

0:00 So during the first year of the conflict in the Middle East, which is something that I think and feel a lot about, somebody posted something on a company wide message board that was typically used for logistical type thing. Made a very, in my opinion, very jagged edged sharply critical comment that that upset me in the abstract, but also upset me because of the way in which it was conveyed in that in that setting. And so, I mean, I even here recalling it to you, Karen, I was 18 months or more ago.

0:33 I mean, it's still kind of gets me a little bit upset, but I chose not to respond on the board in a public way. But I requested a a time to talk with this person one-on-one. The old me might have said, how dare you say something like that? And who do you think you are? And, you know, just really, really come at the person as being somehow invalid almost in their viewpoint. And I just knew that that really wasn't going to be productive and it could permanently damage the relationship.

1:09 At this moment in time, it feels like every headline is about escalation, strong words, sharper reactions, lines being drawn. But conflict doesn't begin only on the global stage. It begins in everyday moments, a post, a meeting, a comment that lands the wrong way. In this episode, I explore with Doctor Larry Schooler what happens in the space before escalation and why the professionals who thrive aren't the loudest or the most agreeable, but the ones who know how to pause, regulate, and respond thoughtfully.

1:45 Welcome to the show on Mind Blend. I'm your host, Karen Chong, and I'll be diving into the minds of incredible people, each an expert in their very own way. Together, we'll uncover insights and share ideas so you can be inspired and empowered to navigate your own unique journey in life. Ready to get curious and discover what's possible? Let's blend. So today I'm joined by doctor Larry Schooler, a communication scholar and a former journalist who spent years studying what happens when everyday communications go unexamined and how thoughtful this can help people stay effective, credible and grounded long before things escalate.

2:32 Hi, Larry. Welcome to Mine Blend. Karen, it's wonderful to be here. Thanks for having me. So at the time of this recording, we are two weeks into January escalating and conflict is something that is just very relevant as we see in global headlines. So today's conversation feels extra timely. But we're not talking about conflict today. We want to be more proactive and preventative and talk about what happens before the conflict. Why don't we start by learning a little bit more about yourself, how you went from journalism to your current position.

3:10 Yeah, I appreciate you asking. It really stemmed from a story that I was reporting as a journalist. So about 3 or 4 years into my time as a journalist, a group in North Carolina set up something called a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. And some listeners may be familiar with that phrasing from places like South Africa, where Nelson Mandela and and Archbishop Desmond Tutu created something where laypeople essentially heard testimonies from South Africans about apartheid, both from the perspective of the victims but also from the perspective of perpetrators.

3:46 And the idea was that rather than prosecuting everybody associated with those crimes and having to do that for years and years, costing untold, you know, millions of dollars, the Commission was designed to allow the truth to come forward and to make a full accounting of what had taken place. And then, as the name implies, to try to reconcile parties that had been essentially at war with each other in one form or another. So obviously, here I am telling you about this, you know, 20 something years after this came into my orbit.

4:19 It really had a profound impact. And I think it led me to realize that there might be a way for me to go from just an objective observer, which is I think primarily what a good journalist does, to someone whose objectivity is still important, but is also trying to to push parties forward in some fashion. And that there's this whole field out there where that can take place. I just really didn't know of its existence. So that was really the seed of this that took place in earnest probably about 5 or 6 years after that story first came to my attention.

5:01 And there were just a couple of roles that I played, particularly inside of government, where I was basically tasked with kind of a form of shuttle diplomacy around some public policy. And, you know, leverage that into becoming sort of a full time conflict management, conflict resolution professional, which is what I do now alongside my teaching at the university. So conflict management, conflict mediation, The conflict has already happened. You're trying to put out the fire, but what? Which part of your work contributes to the side where before things get to conflict?

5:41 Like what? How you play a role in having the parties be in a stage where they can avoid getting into that conflict stage. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I, I like the way you're framing it. I, I think I might frame it a little bit differently just in the sense that I, I tend to begin my semester by telling students that conflict is period. In other words, it's, it's as much a part of our lives as the sun rising and setting and, and blinking and hearts beating and all that sort of thing. Because I think that it often is cast in the light of almost a disease, you know, something that ails us.

6:20 And. That's that's understandable. I mean, conflicts can have horrible consequences in many instances, but I do think that it's important for us to to normalize conflict in some ways and to not think of it as strictly something that needs to be avoided or prevented, but but needs to be understood and managed. Because it will emerge on an almost daily basis, maybe at at different levels or or degrees of severity, but it will likely emerge. But to go back to your question, I I think that one of the most meaningful parts of my work is when I'm given the opportunity to work with a group of people from the beginning of their process of, of working on an issue and we create a set of discussion agreements.

7:09 And that may seem kind of warm and fuzzy, but in reality, I think it's a crucial component to having the kinds of conversations that we both want and need to have to achieve whatever goals we have. And so I, I bring discussion agreements forward, no matter how seemingly benign the conversation might be. I mean, it could be about what a park should look like or, you know, what children should learn in preschool or something. That's, that seems very happy and non controversial and neutral. But the reality is that that for many of us, even from a variety of different cultural backgrounds, weren't, we're not necessarily predisposed to communicate fully authentically without certain guardrails being in place.

7:59 You know, we may have grown up in households where we don't speak until certain other people speak, and even then only speak in in exceptional circumstances. Or perhaps we were brought up in a setting where we were only heard if our voice was raised or if we really asserted ourselves. And so those discussion agreements really, in my mind, are the foundation for any of the conversations that I help facilitate to to begin at all. I mean, I can't really start the conversation other than welcome. And I'm glad you're here without having those discussion agreements in place.

8:32 Sometimes I bring them to the group and they can amend them. Other times let them script themselves. But I really look for an affirmative. Yes, I'm, I'm willing to abide by these agreements and I, and I call them that versus ground rules because to me ground rules are given from sort of on high from position of power. And I'm, I'm trying to cultivate a different relationship with the groups that I work with. They're all peers on the same level. So hopefully that answers your question. I mean, I think it really is not something that we can take for granted at all that people will feel safe and comfortable and willing to share vulnerably and authentically without some card rails in place at the beginning.

9:14 Yeah, I like that. You just bring it to reality. Conflict, if there is going to be, even if everyone is exactly the same, there will still be conflict. And like I know a lot of people who don't like conflict so they just end up not saying anything, but that doesn't mean that they are on board. I also know that from experience and just from observation. It's worse to someone's work, to someone's life, to their mental well-being. So what's your take on Silent Polaris? That's such a good question because I think it, it can be so differently interpreted in different contexts with different people of different power levels and genders and cultures.

10:01 I mean, I think there are certain settings in which silence is, is, as the phrase is, you know, golden. And it is affirming and it is reflective of the fact that I couldn't have said it better than what was just said and really affirm it. And a lot of times we're looking for non verbal cues alongside that silence of something sitting, you know, totally stone faced. That's different than, you know, nodding or closing their eyes or sitting back and kind of reflecting in that way. But I think that it's important to say that silence could actually indicate some level of support.

10:35 But I don't have anything to add to this, that it really, this person either speaks for me or they meaningfully got across something that I couldn't better articulate. Then of course, though, there are times where it's a, it's a fear based silence. You know, I'm, I'm silent because I'm very afraid of the repercussions if I, if I speak my truth. And again, I think you made an, A really salient point before. Even if I'm dealing with people with whom I have some affinity or closeness or mutual respect or trust, that doesn't mean I will always be able to be fully honest with them or fully vulnerable with them or share something that they may not want to hear that takes a long time to get comfortable doing.

11:21 And so the silence could be a reflection of how uncomfortable that person thinks that they will feel or already feels before saying anything about saying something. So I talk about this a lot when I, when I teach students about facilitating and and mediating that it's important to check silences that you, you, you don't need to make an assumption one way or the other. You don't need to guess, you know. So if someone is, is silent, I might say to them in a small enough group, I might say, you know, Karen, I just wanted to check in with you.

11:55 I hadn't heard from you in, in quite a bit. I want to make sure you're, you're OK and that you feel as if you've had opportunity to, to be heard or if you'd like to share something. But some people, no matter how safe I think I've made them feel, I still don't want to sort of buzz in and raise their hand. They, they would like to be sort of individually addressed for one reason or another. And so that could be all that it's about. It could just be sort of standing on ceremony and waiting for the, the time when they're being directly addressed.

12:26 Or it could be, I don't know what to say. I'd rather speak about it privately or I feel like my my views have been well represented, but but checking the silence to me is hugely important because we all use silences and we often use them in in radically different ways, even in the same. Conversation. Yeah. Like, for example, with something that easily happened in household setting. Let's say someone made you a dish and you don't love it, but you're a guest in the party. Karen, were you in my dining room the other night?

13:04 Because this actually happened. This actually happened. I I it's funny. I, I cooked the dish. I had, I had cooked the dish and I yeah, I had, I had cooked the dish and I could just see my wife wasn't like gushing over it, you know, She wasn't like, Oh my gosh, this is the best thing I've ever eaten, which she often does. And I was just like, you don't like it. You're, you're, you really just like it. And it turned out that like it, it sort of grew on her, like she had the first bite and then a few more bites and then she said she really liked it.

13:36 But no, I think that is. That's a perfect illustration of how this can be construed. Yeah, because if you're being brutally honest, anyone thoughtful enough will kind of think about, oh, how is this person going to take it? And there's that's why there's something called white lies, because you don't feel comfortable being completely honest. However, in this cooking situation, what if this person is trying to be better at cooking and by not telling the person, you're hindering their growth?

14:14 Well, and, and as you were talking, I mean, that first of all, that's a wonderful, you know, thread to pull on. There is, you know, we don't necessarily know what each other's aims are in the communication. I mean, there's a, a well known theoretical framework called the lens model, which basically says that you and I are in the same conversation and can experience it in completely different ways based on a variety of different considerations. But that notion of a lens on a camera taking 2 completely different pictures of the same scene.

14:43 And so I think that when we're, you know, when we're, when we're listening and we hear a silence, we, we really have to to be mindful that we don't know for certain what it means or may have guesses based on prior experience either with that person or with other people using the same tactic. But I think it would be unreasonable to think that we could always be certain of the meaning that that person is trying to have by by utilizing that silence. And I, and I think something else that is perhaps somewhat more problematic in the US maybe than other cultures is that we're very, we're very instant in our, in our culture.

15:29 We're very, I need to respond immediately. You hear about, you know, people my, my kids age, you know, if they're, if they're texting and they don't immediately see the three dots, you know, that they must be, you know, in trouble with the person that's not responding. And so, you know, there's, I think a, a predilection in parts of our world to think that that silence indicates, you know, distrust, upset, you know, feeling upset. And so, so those checks are are really vital. Like I am way older than teenagers but I do this thing but no.

16:07 Me too, me too. There's like huge value in not responding immediately because you're buying yourself time to think through something more clearly before hitting send, which is another aspect of thoughtfulness because if you just refunds quickly, you haven't thought it through, it didn't read the way you want it, for example. Yeah, and I wanted to, I wanted to comment on one other thing you said when you use the phrase brutal honesty, which of course we've all heard and and used. And I find it so interesting.

16:40 I've never done a deep dive on the etymology of, of why that phrase came into, into popular use, but I, I, I really, I really wish it, it weren't so because I think that it obviously takes something that many of us value and prize, like honesty associated with something that most of us want to stay far away from brutality. And so I mean, of course, I understand the deeper meaning that, that often times we're conveying something to someone that they may not want to hear. And so in some way, it may feel offensive or it may just feel unwanted, but I think that when we it, it's just really important to stay away from binaries there, you know, that that there can be a form of honesty that is, is not in any way brutal.

17:28 And I think most of us have probably grown up in a in a situation where it's sort of polarized to either avoidance or brutal honesty or sort of keeping a brave face, if you will, versus letting your guard down completely and just going off. And there's obviously quite a spectrum in between those two extremes. Yeah, the I thank you for pointing out the IT doesn't have to be binary aspect because you either avoid conflict because you feel uncomfortable or you are just hurting someone. But what we're saying here is not black and white like that and there's benefit in being honest, long term benefits.

18:10 So let's dive into some of that. So I know you advocate being thoughtful in communication. Let's start with how would you define thoughtfulness? It's a great question. I mean, I, I hate to be too literal and I'll try not to define it with a part of the word, but I do, I do I do right? But I do think the word itself says a lot of what I, what I would say that I'm communicating in such a way that I'm carefully considering what I'm saying and how I'm saying it. The medium, the timing and the recipient, you know, and, and there's a lot there.

18:50 You know, I think many of us, and especially folks younger than than us have grown up heavily reliant on mediums that didn't exist, you know, when we were kids. And so there's, I think then a tendency to communicate certain things across platforms like text messaging and social media that we used to only talk about face to face that we used to only do on a sit down conversation, for example. And then we've also entered a world in which we may go months, if not years without seeing people that we work closely with or even relatives that we're close to, but we still feel close to them because of modern communication.

19:27 So when I think of thoughtful communication, I just, I, I see it as a multi step process of questions that I need to ask myself before I actually communicate whatever it is that I'm going to communicate. And again, it's, it's the substance, it's the way in which I'm going to convey that, it's the medium, it's the timing. And then it's whatever I may know or discern about how that person is going to receive my communication and any customization that I'll use as a result. Let's think of an example.

20:01 Let's say you have to. Message someone about a topic. How do you yourself go through those steps? It's really interesting. I mean, I, I actually went through something here just a short while ago, a week or two ago. And it it was about a sort of a situation, a social situation where I had felt hurt by the behavior of the other person. And the other person is someone that I think of as a friend, but we're not, it's not one of my best friends. We just haven't spent that much time together. And so I really spent, I would say a few weeks even after the incident occurred, thinking about actually whether I was going to communicate, much less what I was going to communicate.

20:45 And, and in this case, not communicating wouldn't appear as ghosting. And I mean, just that wasn't the nature of it. So what I ended up deciding to do was composing an e-mail to him. And I asked myself, what is it that I want to convey? And what I really wanted to convey to him is that I want to be his friend. And that that I could only be his friend if I was honest with him about the way that I felt in this interaction. And that that would hopefully, in that spirit, my sharing it would hopefully bring us closer together.

21:19 And so I didn't sugarcoat what it was that I was upset about, but I also didn't curse at him and I didn't call him names and I didn't say he was a bad person. I just said here's what took place and here's what I felt. And, and I'm, and I'm sharing this with you in the hopes that it will lead to a better friendship. And, and his reply was relatively quick and extremely thoughtful and concessionary apologized. He understood why I was upset and I feel great about the exchange. So I don't share that obviously to boast about, oh, I'm Mr. Super Communicator, but more just to say that I don't think the, the me of 10 years ago would have gone through all of that.

22:01 I think it's taken both my studies, my work, but just also the maturation process to understand how crucial all of those steps are 'cause I, I could have texted him right after it happened and I, I think I would have been really embarrassed later on by what I might have said I. Think it could? Have been easily misconstrued because in such a short message you wouldn't have been able to see my face or or air my intonation. And so it it took a while for me to kind of get my arms around what I even wanted to say.

22:33 And then the, the best way for me to say it and e-mail turned out to be the best way because it just gave me a little bit of space that I think I I needed to take my time, script the message and deliver it in a sensitive way. Well I'm really glad that you did what you did in this situation. Well you being an expert in communication I expect nothing less. But it's happened so often, I can think of many examples of friends I just walked away from instead of just talking it out with them. Like I just it.

23:11 It's probably, it probably appears like ghosting. But I think we were drifting apart anyway. But there were reasons why we drifted apart. But I never either have the courage to face it or I was being the silent polite person because coming to terms with it will inevitably show how I think of that person. So having skills like that, I think it's really important because it probably helped you appear to be more of a reasonable, calm person who can analyze the situation and take some like appropriate actions for it.

23:52 I, I do think though, it's important to say that first of all, this has to be something that connects with your essence, with who you really are. The e-mail that I wrote was not out of character for me. It's the kind of thing that I probably have written in the past or have been on the receiving end of, or, you know, just communicate in that way regularly. So it has to come from a, an authentic place. And, and so I wouldn't want a listener to this to think, oh, I need to really learn e-mail better or something, you know?

24:20 Just every single problematic relationship. Right, right. I mean, and, and that's the other thing, I think I knew this person well enough to feel safe in sharing this with him. Some relationships take on a level of toxicity where it may not be a threat to our physical safety, but it could be a threat to our psychological safety, our emotional and mental safety. And it's OK. It is perfectly OK to just disengage and say, I don't, I don't feel safe here. Just the same way we would run away if we were in a dangerous, physically dangerous situation.

24:55 So I, I, I say that not just to, you know, give comfort to, to people like you who, you know, I'm sure that, but to say that avoiding conflict can in fact be the most prudent approach in, in certain circumstances. But I think when we become, you know, 100% dependent on it, then we we probably cause ourself more difficulty than we than we should have to deal with. Yeah. And being sometimes or situations that you cannot just walk away from, for example, if you're a leader in a company, you can, you can't just walk away from it.

25:30 You have to address it to the, let's say your direct report. Sometimes you just have to be honest and if things left unsaid and one day it's going to explode or worse things will happen. So having this skill is very important for anyone in leadership position or just any professionals really 'cause it's not just manager to direct reports, it could be the other way too. No question. And I want to be cognizant of your listenership being broad. So I won't give a, an example from a particular perspective, political or otherwise.

26:08 But I do think we certainly see plenty of occasions where an apology or just a, a statement of accountability dramatically enhances the, the trust placed in a, in a particular leader or increases that person's followers or just strengthens kind of the, the mission around what that person is, is trying to lead people to do, while at the same time perhaps depicting themselves in a lesser light. And so it's a, it's a strange paradox in that way where we could be admitting something that, that we did that was seriously flawed and wrong, that that was a, a terrible decision.

26:48 And so at least in that moment, if not for a while, people may hold us in in lower esteem as an individual, but perhaps it will preserve the cause for which we've been leading or, or elevate that 'cause even if we do that. Yeah, you brought up the lower position. That's something I want to dive into as well as, you know, thinking about the person you're talking to coming from their perspective. A lot of the times I think that's interpreted as, you know, giving up control almost like, why do I have to be thoughtful of your feeling?

27:26 And I know a lot of people are resistant to that just simply because of this mentality. How would you, how do you reframe that, let's say, if you're teaching this to your students? Well, it's interesting because I teach in a way that I think is consistent with some of what it is that I am teaching. Which means that when I teach a course on facilitative leadership, the lessons I'm trying to impart to the students are that that leaders can be effective even if they are listening very deeply to what their followers want them to do.

28:02 That you don't have to just be a, you know, a, a person who, who issues edicts from on eye and the followers all, you know, run out to, to carry it out. And so as a result of that, I opened myself up to some extent to the students influencing the way in which I teach the class. Even I've had them help decide the kind of assignments we might have in certain circumstances. And that's not a, a strategy that will work for every professor or every elite. But I, I guess in a small way, what I'm trying to convey to them is I recognize that there is some power imbalance here, that I control the grade that you're getting in this class and that that can affect your future.

28:45 Then there's not much I can do about that. But I'd at least like to share power, to give you some power so that you feel invested in what we're trying to do here. Because especially in a university setting with larger classes and so forth, it can be very difficult for students to feel that way, to feel invested in their own learning if they're one of dozens, if not hundreds of, of students in a, in a classroom. And so when it comes to communicating with someone who's at a lower level, I think most managers, most supervisors of other people would probably like well performing employees to stay and maybe to get, I would advise you to take over for them someday.

29:27 Obviously, if they're performance issues, that's it's own matter. But if someone is performing well, I think most of us would like to retain them and and promote them. And it's very costly when we lose people like that. And I one way to retain people. Speaking from my own experience, one thing that kept me in and basically the same role with the same boss for almost 8 years was the feeling that I had a strong level of influence over his thinking that he would rarely, if ever tell me, I'm, I'm ordering you to do this.

30:01 And most often ask me how I felt about something, or I could propose something to him and he would be very open minded about it. And so I, I think that's a, that's a critical piece of retention for most organizations. And, and I think the same can be, especially when you're asking people to volunteer or to give money or to give time, they need to feel as if they are a part of something that they're helping to, to create. And so giving them that agency, giving them that respect will, I think, engender those those stronger bonds.

30:31 How do you think you were able to establish this influence besides them feeling vested in the process?

30:42 I think a couple of things helped. One thing that I do that I'm told is is fairly uncommon is I when I get my list of students for the coming semester, I reach out and ask them to to zoom with me for a few minutes so that I can get to know them ahead of time. And, you know, not all of them do it and I don't, I don't require it, but I do find that it makes them feel seen, that it is something that will lead them to recognize that I'll notice when they're not there as well as when they're there. I mean, I've certainly been in situations where students have had prolonged unexpected absences.

31:17 And I or my TA or both of us have reached out to say, we just want to see how you're doing. And I, I don't want to act as if we're in this super stratosphere of, of professors. I'm. Not your other parents. But, but I think that they, especially when you attend a large institution, my, my university is very large. I, I think the, the default position is, well, I'm just one of, of literally thousands. And so I don't know that I am really seen in the same way in the university as I am in my family or in my organization or my church or my House of worship.

31:56 So I, I think it's just setting a tone from the jump of personal attention that I can keep up for the entire semester with someone if they, you know, stay engaged and sometimes they withdraw and I make attempts. But of course it's a, it's a voluntary thing. You know, they have to have the will to stay engaged and be able to balance all the student has to balance. So it's, it's certainly not a, a process that only I can influence, but hopefully through a combination of reaching out and asking them to, to visit with me and, and giving opportunities for that across the entire semester, they at least feel that I'm listening to them.

32:39 And, and there's nothing more important to people in conflict at least than to feel heard. And so whether we're in conflict or not, I think students, whether it's their grade or the assignment or or whatever, wanna feel heard just like anybody else. The uncommon practice that you do, asking them to zoom with you for a few minutes, that's like having a one-on-one with someone. If you're just joining the company and you have a team of what, 20 or however big your team is and you have one on set up, one on ones with them.

33:10 I see that a lot in manager training or like articles about effective management. I see that a lot. So there's this value that is you can't really replicate in other forms of communication and. It was something that was missing from my college education. You know, I really didn't form relationships with the professors that I had. And that's partly on me. I don't want to in any way suggest that it's all their responsibility and they have plenty of obligations outside of just being my teachers. But when I went to my college reunion last spring, I, I realized that there weren't professors that I, I wanted to go and, and visit with.

33:48 And that, that saddened me because, you know, whether it was my perception of their lack of accessibility, my lack of effort, their lack of effort, it, it didn't come across that they wanted to be in relationship in that way. And so I, I think we have to recognize that in higher Ed that, that students don't, don't know that as an obvious thing. And then in, as you say, in other contexts, people may have come from a place where there were no close personal bonds and it was strictly accomplishing the goals of the, of the organization.

34:19 And then others came from a, a place where you knew everything about each other. And it was, it was very interpersonally intimate. And there's not one right or wrong way, but there will be people coming from all over that spectrum. And so at least creating a circumstance where someone knows that they can potentially share some of that at least privately and get some support, I think that's that's worthwhile. Yeah, and you build trust too, in the process. Like if you have a relationship, having trust is such a lubricant in everything that people can do.

34:53 And I went to UC Berkeley in California. So my my business One O 1 class or BA10, I think it's 700 people. So it they have a lot of big classes and I didn't think it was an option to build relationship with professors because it's like 1 to 700. Who are you? But like being who I am nowadays, I would wonder what would have happened to me if I were, well, times were different. Maybe professors weren't used to this one to one form of communication either, but I might have been like even more successful.

35:30 Well, I, I, I don't know, but I do know that when I worked in municipal government, I was one of, you know, probably 12 or 13,000 employees. And those employees were overseen by a city manager, which is a, a fairly unique American kind of institution. And I'm still in, in relationship with that city manager. I mean, my, my boss had certainly cultivated a relationship. And so I to some degree could ride his coattails, but he also the manager himself, I think gave off a sense that I don't really care what level title you have.

36:08 I'm, I'm potentially interested in your input and, and your influence of. There was one meeting where I was asked to present to a room full of, of city executives. And I remember there was one particular point that several of them questioned in what I had presented and I had advocated for a different position than theirs. And he went with my position. And I haven't forgotten that he could have easily just closed ranks and gone with what his, his closest advisors had said. And it, it wasn't a hugely consequential thing, but it was definitely meaningful to me.

36:43 And so here I was, one of, of thousands. And he made me feel seen and I, I still connect with them went mainly for that reason. You know, it's not easy for a person overseeing a large workforce or a large organization to do that, but it it really does distinguish a lot of of leaders of our time. Yeah. And something that I was thinking, like when you open yourself up to your constituents, your students or your colleagues and just listening to them, people will think, oh, he's a nice person. She's a nice person and nice.

37:18 The word nice has a lot of meanings. Stereotypical meaning might be like easygoing, agreeable, could be a pushover in some circumstances. What is nice truly to you? Well, I, I, I, I really appreciate the unpacking of it the way you just did, because I do think especially I think it can be very gendered and, and sexist in the way it's interpreted. I think, I think women are often unfairly painted with a brush. Like you were talking about men, men maybe to some similar extent, but I really, I really connected back to thoughtfulness and to kindness to me is more predicated on respect, on consideration of who it is that I'm behaving towards or communicating with rather than just saying things that are complimentary or praising praise, you know, praising the person.

38:12 I mean, I'm sure that that the dictionary may think of it as just helping someone with something they need or, or saying something to them that that would make them feel better. And that may be the the case. But to me, especially when I'm thinking about my role as a parent, the the few times that I really intervene with my kids, it's to make sure they understand the difference between the validity of feeling whatever they feel. So they can be angry, they can be sad, they can be, you know, nervous and the most effective ways to convey that.

38:44 And you can very much be nice while you're angry. And this is a huge, huge personal journey for me. I mean, I've had really difficult experiences with the expression of my own anger over the years. And so I've, I've had to go on a journey for myself, say nothing of what I'm trying to teach my kids. But I, I think that I would hate for someone to completely disconnect niceness from any of what we've tended to call the negative emotions, which I, I completely disagree with. I mean, I don't emotions are positive or negative, but I think that niceness really can connect more broadly with just consideration of the other person and how they will react and what they may need emotionally in a particular moment.

39:32 And especially if the other person is upset. What they may need is is almost nothing other than my just listening, my being there. We go back to the silences, right? I mean, there are times where I can think of where I've needed to express something to my wife or friend or someone else I trust. And I don't want them to tell me how to fix it. I don't want them to tell me if I'm right or wrong. I, I just, I want them to, to hear me out. And that is really nice when they do that. That's my feeling of that's when I feel as if someone is nice to me in that, in that way.

40:10 So I just, I would hate for someone to kind of limit it to oh, this, this greeting card or oh, this gift or, you know. The smile, I mean, of course those are nice things. It's just, it's just I think that that it can encompass A broader array of considerate behavior. Yeah. And it ties back to what you said in the very, very beginning, the checking with the other person, like what you mentioned in the example is checking for silence, but in this case, checking the person who is feeling emotions like what they need, what would be helpful for them.

40:49 It's also very useful and also establish you as someone who's like reasonable. It's the only way I can come to mind that comes to mind. But it's more like, you see bigger picture or like you can ground me. And that's again, another like very important skill in today's world because there's conflict all over, different opinions all over. Anything can become like. That's why rage bait is a word in 2025. Yeah, I do think that that also the needs of the communicators can evolve even in the space of one communication or one conversation, meaning that I might start a conversation with someone with the understanding that I'm there to listen to let them get out what they need to get out and so forth.

41:37 And then whether it's with a silence or a gap, either something they said and I feel as if I have a little bit of an opening, I won't, I won't rush into that and, and start advising them when they told me just to listen, but I might ask permission to shift my role a little bit. And I, I, I'm part of a men's group and, and sometimes there's kind of a, a framing where we're just sharing, but then men want to respond in some supportive way to other men sharing something. And we always check. Would you mind if I asked you a question or, or could I share some perspective with you on what you just shared?

42:17 Because it's not always welcome and it's not always something someone is prepared to hear. But I don't think we have to sort of ossify ourselves into a particular role as just, well, we're always the one that they're gonna cause. It's exhausting to be on the receiving end of venting from the same person over and over again. And so we, we can and should establish some of our own boundaries and limits when it comes to that. But we can evolve our role, even in the span of one conversation in a way that I think would still be relatively well received by the person if we ask their permission.

42:54 Yeah, it works on the flip side too. It's tiring to be getting advice all the time, like solicited or unsolicited. Well, most of the time it's unsolicited, but it's tiring for that person too. So then it's important to check the other person when it it's like establishing boundaries, establishing this guardrail of how we can make this conversation more productive. Absolutely. And again, I think one of the trickiest things about this is just all of the assumptions that we make as we communicate or as we prepare to communicate.

43:28 You know, we we've known someone for years and so we think we know how they're going to react. And so we self censor ourselves, for example, we don't say things because we think we know how they're going to react. And I've obviously known my parents my whole life and, and still to this day, sometimes they react in surprising ways to things that I say. And my wife and I learn different things about each other's communication, despite being married for as long as we have and the kids. So I think they, especially as they've become kind of tweens and adolescents, they're finding diverse ways to say what they're feeling and to even feel different things.

44:07 And so we have to let go of most of these assumptions, especially when they're tied to a person's gender or race or culture or role in a company or an organization. You know, I I was driving my son and his friends to basketball practice and I heard them yesterday talking about how the the most skilled player on the team speaks in a certain way to the coach that they think is not appropriate. And I'm not there. So I don't know exactly what they're talking about. And it may be that they that I would agree with them if I were there, but there's so much to unpack there.

44:42 It's like, oh, you, you must do everything exactly the way that you're told to do it by someone in that role of authority that you can't question anything or that if you raise your voice, it must be a sign of disrespect or, or whatever. You know, I don't, I don't know what that is, but I just know that they were all convinced. They were certain that it had crossed a line. And so to me, it's really important to unpack those assumptions as you're evaluating the way you're communicating or being communicated with.

45:10 It's the not having assumptions, it's very important. It's just another component in effective communication and almost regulating your own thoughts 'cause if you jump to conclusion, you already formed this opinion and it will guide you one way or another. Rightfully or wrongly, that is not productive and that's not the best way to approach problems with just a 1 sided view. All right, so there's so many things we can talk about when it comes to being thoughtful, effective communication. But this is just like the surface of how we can help ourselves in our daily relationship with people, how we can establish ourselves as a trusted partner, establish more credibility and just being like appear more calm and reasonable.

46:02 So I probably will have to invite you back for like a follow up episode. Certainly would be my pleasure. Before we go, I'd love to play a game with you rapid fire question round so we can know a little bit more about you and your like way of thinking. So sure, niceness without thoughtfulness is blank. Not a thing. Not a thing, House of. I, I just don't know that that you can be nice to someone in a way that doesn't require some thought. I mean, I suppose it become, it can become reflexive and, and so maybe it requires less thought for some people, but I think knowing how to be nice in a way that will land with the other person requires some thought.

46:52 So it just it doesn't feel very viable to be nice without thoughtfulness behind it. Very, like very. All your answers are very holistic a. Little too a little too meta sometimes. No, look at that. That's important. That's what that's a core theme of mind blind to is to be considered more than one aspect of things. OK. How would you resolve conflicts like 1 bathroom for four people in a hotel room?

47:24 Oh, the, the old, the old resources based conflict. Well, I mean, I think that the, the basic thing is to just really understand what everybody needs from the bathroom. Some people will need it just for a quick but frequent trips in there. They have that kind of need. Other people need a concentrated period of time where they're not going to be walked in on because they're showering and doing all that stuff. And so I think it, it comes down to recognizing what people need from the bathroom in that setting one night or whatever, and then making sure that we have some guidelines around it so that people understand what the shared agreements are, shared expectations are about it.

48:08 And, and what's what's an alternative? Because I mean, I think one thing that that often becomes an obstacle, becomes a hurdle is when we just assume that what we've come up with this airtight and nothing can challenge it. You know, what if, what if the bathroom becomes dys not functioning? What if some key piece of it is not working, you know, and, and what if there's a, a physical like urgent need? What do we do then? So just having contingencies, I think is, is is important, but that's hey that that's a very universal scenario for us to be in for.

48:44 Sure. Yeah. And there's also something called Just get one more yes, just just fine and. A Right Expand the pie, as we say. Yeah, what's 1 sign that you're avoiding discomfort instead of being kind. Well, I know that I feel it physically, so I don't know if this is true for everybody listening, but I can feel it in my like upper back, like some, some knots will develop or maybe like not in my stomach. You know, the way people talk about that. So some of it to me is very visceral, very, you know, physical, like I'm, I'm uncomfortable and it's not because of something I ate or a, or a fall or something like that.

49:27 I think it could also show up in the way we were talking about before in, in, in a silence that we don't understand or that we don't like someone's not engaging with us the way that we're used to them engaging with us and, and that feels not great. So I think that it, it doesn't have to be the kind of thing that involves a lot of, of deep processing. It could just be like, gosh, normally I talk to this person every day or I check in with them pretty often and we haven't talked in three or four days or I'm in the room with them and everything is fine in terms of our different roles and what we're doing.

50:06 But I'm feeling this thing, this combination of symptoms, those are things that I think could at least sound an alarm to say, hey, maybe I need to to check on this. This feels like it's not going exactly the way I I think it should go, or it's it's trending in the wrong direction. Yeah, it's your intuition sometimes that's a not. That's a, not. Yeah. What's 1 phrase that people say that sounds nice but actually caused harm? I'm sorry if you were offended or I'm sorry if you were upset or I'm sorry if.

50:41 Interesting. You know, I, I think that, I think that the challenge for me with that is, and I, and I actually used to set this trap, not on purpose, but inadvertently. There's a, a religious holiday that we observe where each year, once a year, we're supposed to take an accounting of, of what we may have done wrong and, and take accountability. And a lot of times I would say to someone, Hey, I'm sorry for anything that I did this past year that that upset you. And over time, I just, I began to see that as meaningless.

51:11 It's like I'm not, I'm not facing anything that, you know, if, if hurt the relationship. And so when you convey the, what I just said, if you convey, you know, I'm sorry you were hurt. I mean, I, I, I, I understand the, the, the intention there, but it's, it's sort of putting the burden. It's like you had this thing, it's sort of your responsibility and fault. I'm just like trying to kind of put a Band-Aid on it as opposed to I'm sorry that what I did was upsetting and this and it's the specific thing.

51:49 So I think the, the combination of the vagueness, but also just the the way in which it it, it sort of seems to shift responsibility back onto that other person. I think could really leave them feeling more isolated and and not not appreciated in the way they want to be. Yeah, it sounds like you're not taking accountability for what you've done to. Passing the buck? Yeah, absolutely. I think that's where it gets across. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for sharing a lot of your experience. And just what do you know of like being in this field of, you know, communication, conflict mediation, your previous experience witnessing how people can be more effective in their communication, especially when more than one party is involved.

52:33 And it's really important for us all to have skills like that, especially many people are looking for jobs. And this will help you in like even job search situation. You don't have to be nice in your interview, just saying all the nice things to hear, not praising your interviewer, but just being like truthful and just being transparent. That scores a lot of points at interviews too. Agreed. As someone who's both applied for jobs and evaluated people for jobs, I think you're right. It does score a lot of points.

53:08 Yeah, Well, thank you very much, Karen. Thank you very much for having me on. Right, thank you very much.

53:17 Thanks for listening to this episode of Mind One. If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to follow and share it with anyone who needs to hear it. And let's keep the conversation going. Connect with me on LinkedIn or leave me a comment. Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and let's continue to blend our minds and discover what's possible.