You can complain, or You Can Adjust - Mary Westheimer

0:00 I just think just like the amazing variety we have in our

0:05 lives and in our world, we can do that.

0:08 We can pick and choose what we want to do and who we want to do

0:12 with it with. And that is one of the benefits

0:15 of getting older is I think we get better at realizing, oh,

0:20 well, this gives me energy, I'm going to do more of this or this

0:24 really sucks my energy. I can't do this anymore.

0:27 And that is one thing about getting older that I think is

0:31 really powerful is awareness. You have to be paying attention

0:37 not only to your body, which is crucial, but also what works for

0:43 you, what makes you feel good, what doesn't.

0:45 And if it doesn't? And that is Mary Westheimer,

0:51 someone who has a very positive yet realistic view on aging.

0:55 In this episode, we'll hear all about what's shocking and funny

0:59 about aging, but more importantly, how you can move

1:02 through it with a mindset that actually helps.

1:05 This is also the first episode of the series, Aging According

1:09 to everyone else, welcome to MIND Blend.

1:14 I'm your host, Karen Chong. In each episode, I talk with

1:17 people who've experienced something real and we breakdown

1:20 what made the difference so you can see yourself and the world

1:23 around you more clearly, spot what you might have been

1:26 missing, and move through life with a clearer way forward.

1:29 If you like what you're hearing, share with those around you and

1:32 subscribe to Mind Blend. You will help a lot in spreading

1:35 the insights for anyone who can use them.

1:37 Let's blend. So joining me today is Mary

1:44 Westheimer, author of What Nobody Tells You About Getting

1:48 Older, Aging With both Eyes Open and a Smile on Your Lips.

1:53 Mary has spent years collecting the kinds of observations about

1:56 aging that most of us quietly notice but rarely talk about out

2:01 loud. From strange little changes in

2:04 our bodies to the surprising emotional moments that seem to

2:07 sneak up on us, Mary approaches aging with honesty, curiosity,

2:12 and a healthy dose of humor, and I can attest to that.

2:16 So we're going to understand what's happening and share some

2:19 interesting facts about Mary today.

2:21 Hi Mary, I'm so glad you're here.

2:23 Welcome to mind plan. Hi, Karen, thank you so much for

2:26 having me. So I noticed the way you

2:29 describe yourself, at least on your Instagram, is you're

2:33 currently an old person, but you have a very healthy and positive

2:38 attitude about that. I am guessing that you haven't

2:41 always been like that, right? Well, actually I probably have.

2:47 I think I'm. A positive person because the

2:50 alternative is not really very attractive or fun.

2:54 And so I do a lot of work about that and I've learned a lot over

2:58 the years, but so hopefully I've gotten better at it.

3:01 But I do think that it's important that, as you have

3:05 said, that we have the right mindset because we have no other

3:09 choice. Well, we do, but we don't want

3:10 to do that. And, and so let's, let's have

3:15 fun. We might as well enjoy it.

3:17 And that's kind of how I've approached life in general.

3:20 Yeah, that's a great attitude because you cannot control it.

3:24 It's going to happen. Well, the only thing we can

3:28 control is the way we respond. And so once you know that, then

3:34 you stop trying to control what's happening and start

3:38 trying to figure out, well, how do I work with this?

3:41 How do I make this work for me? So it it is a mindset,

3:45 definitely. And do you remember, was it a

3:50 moment that sparked, oh, I want to write a book about this?

3:55 Because I'm a list maker, and so I have a lot of lists.

4:00 And one of them was why didn't anybody tell me this about

4:03 aging? And so about four or five years

4:08 in, I realized I have more than forty of these things.

4:12 And some were funny and most of them were observations from my

4:16 own life. And that's when I said, I think

4:19 I could write a book. And so then I began getting

4:23 serious and doing research because there were some things

4:27 that weren't in there that are really critical about aging.

4:30 But I never really planned to write a book.

4:33 I have written one other book was a work for hire, and I was a

4:36 professional writer for many years.

4:39 But this was a little bit of a surprise.

4:41 In fact, somebody said to me, how does it feel being an

4:45 author? And I had to think about it.

4:47 And I said, oh, I guess I am an author.

4:50 Yeah. But I really have always seen

4:52 this as a way to share information and and that's been

4:56 my goal, so I didn't plan to write a book.

5:00 But it's interesting that you're putting list of the things that

5:02 you're noticing. Do you remember what were the

5:05 initial ones and how they were surprising to you?

5:11 Well, it it came over the years and I think that they arrived.

5:17 Some of them are funny. The the original ones are all

5:20 pretty funny, but they were things that I would discover.

5:23 One of my favorites is Sing Sing Sing, which I wrote about my

5:28 grandparents because I noticed that they did this and that.

5:32 Guess what? Now I do this and most people I

5:35 know, which is I hear a song and I think, Oh my gosh.

5:40 And then I started singing the song because I remember it and

5:43 it relates to what's going on. And when they did it, I thought,

5:47 Oh my gosh, you know, these poor old people.

5:50 And now I do it because that's the fabric of our lives.

5:54 That's how we grew up and what we heard.

5:57 So that was an early favorite. But I will say that the most

6:01 shocking part of all that happened after the book was

6:05 actually all written, had been all laid out.

6:08 And it suddenly struck me like a Thunderbolt that I bet my mother

6:13 tried to tell me some of these things.

6:16 I listen because for one thing, she was my mom.

6:20 What could she know, right? And so I said, we have to get in

6:24 a couple of paragraphs here because I think she tried to

6:27 tell me. And I think when we're younger,

6:31 we think we know everything so. Yeah.

6:35 That was probably the most shocking thing that I did.

6:39 But oh, I would just I just jot down the list.

6:42 I keep it on my phone. And so I had it with me all the

6:45 time. And the most fun were the were

6:47 the good things that I know. So when you have come to terms

6:52 with it and you decided to do something positive about it,

6:57 what did you have to shift anything?

6:59 Did you have to adjust anything mentally?

7:03 That is a great question. I, I don't think so only because

7:10 I'd thought about it so much and it'd be so much part of my life

7:15 jotting these things down, although it was just, they would

7:18 come in waves. I'd so I, I think I didn't

7:22 really have to shift as much on that as on the need to just be

7:28 positive and realize that the only thing I can do is odd this

7:33 control my response. And that was definitely a mind

7:37 shift because I think humans have a tendency to want to

7:41 control things and guess what? We can't.

7:44 So that's an awakening, something to accept.

7:48 So that was probably the bigger shift is accepting that and and

7:54 then saying now how do I work with this?

7:57 Yes, as you were saying, you didn't really have to change a

8:00 whole lot. Like you were pretty positive

8:03 even before deciding to write a book, before coming to terms

8:06 with it. So it's a blessing, I think

8:10 because I have had people in my family, they really had a

8:14 difficult time accepting they're entering a different stage.

8:18 They would try, they would get really angry when they couldn't

8:21 do the things that they used to be able to do.

8:23 And let's dig into some of those.

8:26 So you mentioned in the book a few things that maybe more and

8:29 more of us are noticing aren't as easy anymore.

8:33 A very obvious one is our physical ability.

8:37 And there are friends around me. They will like, they're a

8:42 different age and it's, I guess they look young.

8:46 And whenever I say something about, yeah, you don't look that

8:49 age, and then they would say, oh, tell that to my niece or

8:53 tell that to my back. So getting hurt is one of the

8:57 things that you talked about. I got some questions from

9:00 listeners when they know that I'm doing this episode.

9:03 One person asked, how do you get over the hump of I'm always

9:07 hurting? Things don't heal as fast, Why

9:10 am I in pain? And it's really, it's a real

9:13 downer when you're always getting hurt.

9:17 It it totally is because we're not in control.

9:20 Once again, I think it's a control thing, but I think the

9:23 answer, Karen, is that we have to move and we have to stretch

9:30 and we have to do all these things.

9:32 And I do address that in the book that I now exercise more

9:35 than ever before. In fact, when I was young, I

9:37 never did because I didn't have to.

9:40 But now what I find is that so many parts of my body, unless I

9:45 stretch every day, which is which I do, I hurt.

9:50 So that becomes an important part of my life.

9:53 And I think everybody who's aging will find that that the

9:57 more you move and the more you stretch and just take care of

10:02 your body in ways you didn't have to before, the less you

10:06 hurt. And and I, I can tell.

10:09 And yet I still have to talk myself into it.

10:14 Oh, sure. Yeah.

10:14 Oh, I don't need to do this today.

10:16 I did it yesterday. I'll do it tomorrow.

10:19 And then I, I taught to myself a lot of self talk of Mary, you

10:24 need to do this. And then when I'm done, I

10:26 realize, oh, I'm so glad I did that.

10:29 But it is a daily convincing of myself to do these things,

10:34 specifically the physical moving and just taking care of my body

10:40 in ways I never had to do before.

10:43 So I I think that's the answer, but I don't like it either.

10:48 Do you have anyone around you who is sort of resistant to

10:53 taking better care of themselves by being more physical?

10:57 Like. Anyone anonymous?

11:02 Who's actually a little younger than I am.

11:05 He did struggle. It is did I, But he struggled

11:08 early on because he has a very physical job.

11:11 He's a sculptor and he lifts heavy things.

11:14 And he would say, well, I don't need to do that because I'm very

11:17 physical in my work. And I'd say it's not the same

11:21 thing. And eventually I learned don't

11:25 pressure him. And then eventually he caught on

11:29 and he realized how much better he felt.

11:31 And so he now works out and does physical things, goes on walks

11:36 with me and things which he never had to do before.

11:40 So but in general, I think I do surround myself with positive

11:45 people and people I want to be like.

11:48 And we support each other in whatever it is we're trying to

11:51 do. And that includes being honest

11:53 sometimes. So, but I think the mind and the

11:58 body have to go hand in hand. Yeah, the reason I asked that is

12:03 I wanted to see what's your magic for your secret superpower

12:08 to encourage the ones around you.

12:11 Because you do lead by example. Oh what a great great question.

12:16 I I just think pressuring people does not work. 100.

12:21 Percent, as you said, leading by example and maybe a timely

12:26 reminder. Somebody says I hurt so much, So

12:31 what are you doing about, you know, physical activity or I use

12:35 the Socratic method a lot. I don't know if you're familiar

12:38 with that, but Socratic method is simple, brilliant and really

12:44 works, which is you ask questions and when you ask

12:49 people questions, they answer, they come up with the answer

12:53 themselves and that empowers them.

12:56 So if I say, Gee, what are you doing as far as physical

12:59 activity that allows them to think about it themselves and

13:04 say, well, not much or I don't know.

13:06 I work out once a week or whatever it is.

13:09 And that's really, really empowering for people to have

13:12 the answer themselves. But pressure doesn't work.

13:17 Ridicule definitely doesn't work, at least not in my world.

13:19 And I not if you're in a long term relationship of any kind,

13:24 if it's someone you want to be friends with tomorrow.

13:27 But but gentle reminders and the Socratic method really do work,

13:33 Yeah. That sounds like a great method.

13:36 I definitely know no matter what age, forcing ridicule doesn't

13:41 work. Even when you're a kid you're

13:43 forbidden to eat whatever and when the parents are not here

13:47 you just go crazy on it. So we don't, we know that don't

13:50 work. Since you talked about

13:53 surrounding yourself with people.

13:55 I know you did talk about tricks and what kind of friends you

13:59 surround yourself with. Now there's two groups that you

14:04 do try to make friends with. And I want to understand what's

14:07 a good like what's the benefit of having friends who are like

14:11 older or your age group or younger?

14:15 Because I know we'll like, I think there'll be some secret

14:18 that people don't know I love. Older people, now that I am one,

14:23 it's sort of weird, but I really do like older people.

14:27 And I have a couple of women in my life who are in their 90s and

14:32 I love how they approach life, which is very straightforward

14:36 and they don't beat around the Bush and they then you don't

14:40 paint things more beautifully than they are.

14:43 They're really honest without being unkind.

14:45 So I think it is important to have older people for me in my

14:49 life to help remind me of the bigger arc of what we approach

14:56 in our world. But I've also learned that I

14:58 need younger people in my life because they think differently.

15:03 But I do know that the younger people in my life help me

15:08 realize, oh, there's a different way to look at this.

15:11 And sometimes I do ask them questions.

15:13 And in the book I refer to why people buy ripped jeans, which I

15:19 just don't get it. But I do ask them because I want

15:24 to understand why, why that's of interest to them and how it

15:29 makes them feel. And it may or may not change my

15:32 opinion, but it helps me understand better.

15:36 So I think it's a good balance to have both in my life and just

15:40 having other people helps me see things in such a different way.

15:45 I, I'm in a book club, which I love because we really talk

15:48 about books and I'm a book person.

15:50 So and every time we discuss a book, I see something I had

15:57 never seen in a way I had never seen it.

16:00 And it's just because their experience is different.

16:03 And I think this is true above older people and younger people.

16:07 And so I like to have all kinds of different types of people,

16:12 ages, backgrounds, everything, because I learned so much.

16:18 Like when you mentioned I love old people, I, I know someone

16:23 who has said that too. And I understand why because

16:27 there are people who are more senior and they are angry and

16:32 they are mean and they are unkind to anyone younger.

16:36 But there are other people who genuinely want to share their

16:40 experience like they lived in a different world before.

16:44 So they've seen, they've seen it before, so they have an idea of

16:48 how to handle a situation. Whereas many of us are just

16:52 experiencing pandemic for the first time in our lives and we

16:57 are like experiencing the first like technology revolution

17:02 that's getting rid of people, sort of like when the assembly

17:05 line, when the assembly line came about.

17:08 So we, we can definitely draw a lot of knowledge from older

17:12 generations who have seen more than us.

17:13 And also, I like that you point out you can learn a lot from

17:16 young generations too. Because I have a sister, she's

17:20 11 years younger than me. Just by talking to her, I now

17:25 know what this word means. Well, like I now know why people

17:30 put this word in here. It doesn't make grammatical

17:32 sense. But I like, I find myself using

17:35 it now too. So I feel like that's a great

17:38 way to stay in touch. Like in the book, you at least

17:42 understand what memes mean. I remember when that word first

17:47 came around because I What is that?

17:51 And then the wonderful thing that we have, the advantage we

17:54 have in this era is the ability to look things up.

17:58 It's so easy. Yeah, yeah, you have to go to

18:01 the. Library.

18:01 But now I can just turn to the web and search and find out

18:06 information. And one of those things that

18:09 younger people talk about that I find myself looking up honestly

18:13 is acronyms. And I don't know what that

18:16 means. So does that mean So that really

18:20 helps me too. That's a huge advantage that we

18:23 have today. And now we do have to sort a

18:26 little bit more than we used to, but still that instant

18:30 information is so powerful. Yeah.

18:34 And there's no excuse to be ignorant anymore.

18:37 Now there's this understanding the source of information and

18:41 verify that too, but that's separate topic.

18:45 But yeah, like, there's no excuse to just not take

18:48 advantage of what we have at our fingertips.

18:51 And just like, staying relevant, like you talked about in your

18:54 book, and I know you do, like you make friends with younger

18:57 people, try to stay irrelevant. And have you ever felt like the

19:03 society seems to feel, seems to make older generations feel like

19:08 they're irrelevant? They try, try, but I think, you

19:14 know, we the beautiful thing is we can pick and choose.

19:17 And so if I'm with someone who's negative or, you know, talking

19:24 down about things, we'll even say about the Internet, they're

19:28 not my people, Karen. And so sometimes I just have to

19:33 say, and you never want to hear this from me.

19:35 If I say best of luck, I really, really mean it, but I'm not

19:40 going to be in your life because you have an approach to life

19:44 that brings me down or, you know, I don't find productive.

19:48 And so that's OK, someone else will find that helpful and

19:52 useful. But I, I just turn away from

19:55 that and I turn towards something that I find helpful,

19:58 productive, interesting and funny.

20:01 Funny really wins out for me. But not everybody feels that

20:05 way. So we're not all for each other.

20:08 You know, we need to be able to pick and choose.

20:12 What works best for us? So sometimes that works better

20:17 than others. If it's a family member, that's

20:19 kind of a tough, tough and dance to take.

20:23 But even then I I just find, well, you know, so great to see

20:28 you. Thanks so much.

20:29 Best of luck. I don't think it's relatives,

20:32 but I just think just like the amazing variety we have in our

20:40 lives and in our world, we can do that.

20:42 We can pick and choose what we want to do and who we want to do

20:46 with it with. And that is one of the benefits

20:49 of getting older is I think we get better at realizing, oh,

20:54 well, this gives me energy. I want to do more of this or

20:58 this really sucks my energy. I can't do this anymore.

21:02 And that is one thing about getting older that I think is

21:06 really powerful is awareness. You have to be paying attention

21:12 not only to your body, which is crucial, but also what works for

21:17 you, what makes you feel good, what doesn't, and if it doesn't,

21:21 move and direct. Like why do it right?

21:26 Right. Yeah, it's.

21:27 A privilege to be able to say that.

21:29 And I do think maybe something that would take us to up to our

21:35 mid 20s to have the courage to say it now.

21:38 People are people have the courage to say it even when

21:41 they're younger. And just like, no, I don't feel

21:43 like hanging out tonight. I'm just going to stay home and

21:46 watch movies. I don't think it's a faux pas to

21:50 say that when you're invited to a party now.

21:53 So I I do think times change and maybe for the better.

21:58 And it changes so that it works for the people living in it, I

22:03 think. But honesty is required and.

22:06 Honesty and. Awareness.

22:08 Yeah, I think so. And that you don't have to be

22:10 unkind to be honest. Ironically, what you're saying

22:15 makes me realize young, very young people like under.

22:18 Yeah, whatever. They're usually pretty good

22:20 about being honest. They get it kind of rubbed out

22:25 of them after a while, they. Because they might get

22:27 reprimanded for being too honest.

22:29 I can remember my mother saying to me, I don't know what I said

22:32 to whom, but my remember my mother saying to me once, Mary,

22:38 if you don't like Aunt Harriet's hat, you don't have to say I

22:42 don't like it. You can just say Aunt Harriet.

22:45 It's stunning. And that way you're not lying,

22:50 but you're also not making her feel bad.

22:53 So a lot of times it's just a matter of how we respond and we

22:58 don't have to lie. And I think again, we get better

23:01 at that. But kids are pretty good at

23:03 being honest. So and I think older people are

23:07 and they do pick and choose. And I realized it is not

23:11 dependent on your how you live, your amount of wealth, how much

23:14 money you have, where you live. I know people who are a very

23:19 modest means they still do what they want.

23:22 And you have to recognize, though, what that is.

23:25 If you're doing something and it's making you miserable, maybe

23:28 you shouldn't do that. Yeah, just like how people just

23:34 get angry at the world. Yeah, they're not helping

23:37 themselves. They are making people want to

23:41 drive them out of society even faster.

23:44 Like by By serving as a bad example of what more wiser

23:49 senior generations are, they're actively making people want to

23:55 treat them as invisible. Yeah.

23:58 Yeah, that's a good point. And one of those things is

24:01 talking about your health all the time.

24:04 And this is something that older people do.

24:07 My my parents used to call it the organ recital.

24:10 And and I just, I really don't have a lot of patience for that

24:16 because guess what? We all are hurting.

24:19 We all are dealing with health problems, but do we also have to

24:23 talk about it all the time? I don't think it helps.

24:26 I really don't unless, unless they might have information that

24:30 would help us. That's different, somebody who's

24:33 been through the same thing. But if all you're going to do is

24:36 sit around and talk about your health.

24:40 And I'm not. Interested.

24:42 It doesn't help. So that is something that we do

24:46 have to watch as we get older. Is that organ recital?

24:50 Yeah. There I do have family members

24:54 every time we talk. Now, this is not very frequent,

24:58 but every time we are on the phone they are talking about

25:02 their pains. What do you think that's doing

25:05 to them? And yeah, and.

25:11 Makes us worry and but we cannot do anything because they are the

25:16 ones who need to go seek help. But it also doesn't help them

25:20 with healing. Now you just made me realize,

25:22 yeah, it. Makes them feel older and more

25:25 miserable. And talking about aging all the

25:27 time makes you feel older. So yeah, it that's a tough one.

25:34 That is a. Yeah, but if people are

25:38 prepared, like if they have read your book before turning a

25:42 certain age, it may help them like ease in to the next phase

25:46 of their lives. So another thing that you talked

25:49 about in your book is taking care of your body and you

25:52 mentioned the physical, working out.

25:54 What about the outside, the appearance?

25:58 Oh, that is a very good question.

26:00 And I do a lot of things for my body.

26:05 I, I have a physical trainer, I have a therapist, I go to yoga

26:14 and I had, well, I said weight training and all these people

26:20 help my body. Yet one of them said to me

26:24 something interesting. She said, Mary, a lot of people

26:27 I know spend a tremendous amount of money on plastic surgery and

26:34 having their hair colored and their nails done.

26:38 She said you spend all your money on massages and yoga and,

26:44 and I thought, oh, that's very true.

26:46 I probably don't spend any less than they do, but I, I apply it

26:51 differently. And maybe that's because I'm not

26:54 as concerned about my outward appearance.

26:57 And honestly, Karen, it probably would have been better for my

27:02 career if I were more concerned about my physical appearance.

27:06 But Oh, well, I'm OK with focusing on some of it is inner,

27:14 but I'm totally in favor of anybody who wants to do anything

27:19 that makes them feel better, whether it's plastic surgery,

27:23 whether it's having their nails done, All those things are

27:27 fantastic. We just have to know which of

27:30 those things are for us. So I I don't know if I answered

27:34 your question, but I hope so. Yeah.

27:36 You. Did and 'cause there's a

27:38 difference between staying young and like maintaining and chasing

27:45 youth. Like there are people who

27:47 definitely try to wear things that they wore.

27:50 They probably bought it at Forever 21 thinking that they're

27:53 forever 21. So we definitely have people

27:56 like that. Yeah.

27:58 And but that's not really because for me, I, I don't

28:02 really think dressing your age is 100% the right approach

28:08 because your outfit makes a whole lot of difference.

28:11 It can make you look 10 years older or 10 years younger.

28:14 And if you can choose wisely, it can actually help you appear

28:17 younger, which may help you feel better.

28:21 Yes. I totally agree with that.

28:24 Yeah, absolutely. And again, that goes back to

28:26 awareness. How does it make you feel?

28:29 You know, are you dressing up because you think you're

28:31 supposed to or are you dressing up because it makes you feel

28:34 good? Or maybe it matches your goals

28:37 and your career goals too. And you know, when I was in a

28:42 more traditional kind of business, I did dress up.

28:46 I had heels and I all that stuff.

28:49 I did all those things. But now I don't have to and I

28:53 don't because I'm more comfortable wearing shorts.

28:57 And, you know, I still work in the studio and the welder, I

29:04 mean welder, the sculptor that I work for is my husband and I go

29:07 in once a week and I Weld and I grind and I get really, really

29:10 dirty. And I love it.

29:12 So obviously there, I'm not dressed in heels.

29:15 I don't. But I love the feeling that it

29:19 gives me of accomplishment. And because so much of what I do

29:24 is you can't touch it, you can't hear it, you can't, you know, So

29:28 doing something physical is great for me.

29:30 And I like the uniform, which is old jeans and so oh.

29:38 I may have an answer about the ripped jeans thing like may not

29:43 be an answer but I can tell you my point of view OK?

29:46 If you try. To do it yourself so you have a

29:49 perfect like fine pair of jeans, no rips, no nothing.

29:52 If you try to cut it yourself, unless you are very talented in

29:57 fashion, it will just look like you did it yourself or it looks

30:01 like you were caught in it in trees.

30:04 So the way they do it, they like there's only the top layers RIP,

30:09 but the under like the bottom layer is not.

30:13 So that may be the reason. And I choose the rips very

30:18 selectively, though they don't all look good I think.

30:22 You're right, if you try to do it yourself, it's not the same.

30:27 Someone else told me, he said I do it because I like the fit of

30:31 the genes that I'm picking. So but I think coming from a

30:37 world where you want things to last a long time, it just seems

30:42 counter. It's already ripped, but you

30:45 know, most genes are run through chemicals and stones to look

30:51 soft and a lighter blue. So it's very difficult to buy

30:55 jeans that are not pre warm. Yeah.

31:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's interesting.

31:03 Oh, I hope I didn't insult you. No.

31:09 No, no, not at all. I'm curious, what is something

31:13 'cause the all your approach to things is different from what I

31:18 think someone who's more senior would think.

31:22 So for example, when you see comments made by younger people,

31:26 you are very kind and you just walk away instead of getting

31:30 angry and telling them this is wrong.

31:33 So your mindset is very positive.

31:35 Are there anything right now that younger generations?

31:39 It can be millennials, it can be Gen.

31:41 Z, it can be Geneva, just younger.

31:44 Are there any things that they're doing that like it's

31:47 makes you frown and curious, but because of your positive

31:52 mindset, you don't say anything. Are there anything like that?

31:55 What are some examples of the well?

31:57 And I will talk, talk a little bit about positive mindset

32:00 because there is one thing that helped me tremendously.

32:03 But I do see something that it kind of concerns me, but I have

32:07 no control or no. And that is I see a lot of

32:11 people in younger generations spending all of their money.

32:19 They're not saving. They're going out to dinner,

32:22 they're buying fancy clothes and cars, things they cannot really

32:27 afford. That does concern me, but I have

32:31 no control. I don't have children, so I

32:34 can't really say anything to them and I observe it and it

32:41 concerns me, but I have no way to influence that.

32:46 But one of one of the ways that I keep a positive mindset, and I

32:49 learned this from a man named Christopher Doris who has a

32:53 little pod, not a podcast, a little e-mail that he sends out

32:57 everyday. And I get a tremendous amount of

33:02 wonderful information. And he talks about the O line

33:06 and that's the what he calls the objective line.

33:09 And he says, OK, in the there are positive approaches and

33:14 there are negative approaches. And in the middle is

33:17 objectivity. And he said, so if you just cut

33:21 off everything below the O line and just take a positive view of

33:26 everything, it's amazing how powerful it is.

33:30 And you very seldom have to say anything negative.

33:33 Now, I'm not going to pretend that I'm perfect at it because

33:37 there are times when I just want to bang my head on the on the

33:42 desk, like, Oh my gosh, what are they thinking?

33:45 But usually I can find something positive to say or think about

33:51 what's going on. And I think that dot tends to

33:54 elevate all of my thinking in general toward positivity

33:59 because negativity, you can make a point about something, but you

34:06 don't have to be negative. You can do it in a positive way.

34:10 And pursuing that approach really helps me be more creative

34:15 in saying how to say it. It's been tremendously helpful

34:18 to me. So I think I think it's worth

34:22 knowing I've learned a lot from him.

34:24 Now, how do you distinguish negativity and criticism?

34:30 Are criticisms always negative to you?

34:33 Wow. Well, that is a really great

34:37 question. I think it goes back to what my

34:41 mother said about Aunt Herriot's hat.

34:44 I don't have to say no, Aunt Herriot.

34:46 I really think that's a hideous hat.

34:49 So instead, what she said to me, once again, my mother was right.

34:54 What she said was say it in a way that is more positive and

35:00 you don't have to lie. But I really believe in being

35:02 honest. But you can say that is an

35:06 amazing hat and you're not lying.

35:10 Now, if you say that's interesting, don't catch on

35:13 because interesting is an obvious way of avoiding

35:18 something negative. But you can probably say

35:21 something like, I have never seen a hat like that before.

35:25 And usually they'll just take it as a compliment.

35:28 Well, thank you. And you go from there.

35:30 So I, again, I think it's sort of a little bit in the realm of

35:36 creativity is how can I not be negative but still be honest?

35:41 So, and again, I'm not going to make it sound like I'm perfect.

35:45 There are times when I just struggle like everybody else.

35:50 But I do think having a positive perspective is tremendously

35:54 helpful in navigating life. Yeah.

35:57 And I think you give older generation a better reputation

36:01 because we like old and cranky always seem to be like mentioned

36:07 together. Like if you're old, you must be

36:10 cranky. So and you prove that it's not

36:12 true because we always think like, if I think about why

36:16 younger people seem to have this constant tension with older

36:20 people, it's because they criticize them.

36:23 Older people criticize them like, why are you playing video

36:27 game all day? Why are you always on your

36:29 phone? And but it's.

36:31 Presentation because if you say help me understand why you're,

36:36 why are you doing video games all day, I need to, I want to

36:39 understand as opposed to what, what are you doing?

36:43 Why are you doing that? And I think sometimes there's a

36:46 good reason and we really don't know what it is.

36:49 But if you open with a critical salvo, you're never going to

36:54 hear the reason. You're just going to hear them

36:56 defend it. Yeah.

36:58 Well, I think part of that is being open minded to maybe

37:00 there's something here I don't understand being open.

37:05 Minded. That's how you kind of get on

37:07 with times too, I think, because otherwise you will never you

37:11 refuse to get into a car that doesn't have a driver.

37:16 That's a big issue where I live because we have Waymo here and

37:21 I've had Waymo for years and we're the largest contiguous

37:25 area of autonomous driving cars. So people here are pretty used

37:31 to seeing them. But my husband did put a post on

37:34 social media his first trip in a in a way MO, and most of the

37:40 comments were, I would never do that.

37:44 And I thought, isn't that fascinating because we hadn't

37:47 thought to be scared? Yeah, there have been things

37:52 that have happened that we probably could.

37:56 So. But we still use it because

37:58 there's some advantages, you know?

37:59 And again, it's, it's parsing what is worthwhile and what

38:05 isn't. And that's something you do

38:07 better as you get older, if you're paying attention.

38:12 Yeah, if you're paying attention, because humans are

38:16 not necessarily better than machines when it comes to

38:18 driving, when it comes to the judgement now that the

38:21 technology is still being developed.

38:23 Like, I don't know if you remember it was one of the Will

38:26 Smith movies. And I don't think it's Men in

38:29 Black, but it's some other futuristic movie.

38:32 And all the cars are like self driving cars and they like

38:36 zipping through the freeways really quickly.

38:39 And it's almost but you don't want humans to be driving cause

38:43 the machines still drive the way they should and you actually can

38:47 minimize accidents. Unless you do something you're

38:49 not supposed to, then that's how you caused the accident.

38:52 Well, we've. Had some very interesting

38:55 situations here where autonomous cars get the things that they

38:59 probably shouldn't have done. One of them got stuck on the

39:03 light rail tracks and they had to get it off the tracks before

39:07 it got hit by a A train. But I think the incidence of

39:12 mistakes and I, as I said, we've had some exciting moments, but

39:16 so far we've survived and there are times when it's just really

39:22 the best choice. But my husband had surgery on

39:26 his neck and he couldn't drive well.

39:28 He'd go down to the studio, he could still work.

39:31 He would go to the studio in Ouemo and otherwise I would have

39:35 had to drive him down there and then come pick him up.

39:39 And so there are moments when it it really is the best choice.

39:43 So, but they're not perfect. I mean, just like us.

39:47 Not yet. They've hopefully we'll get

39:51 better and better. I read a book like a while ago

39:54 and it talked about how all these things that we are

39:57 starting to use as consumers, they've been in development for

40:01 50 years, so. Take a long time, we just don't

40:04 see it. So I am like very impressed by

40:09 your outlook and how you view life and your attitude.

40:12 And I wanted to ask you to tell our listeners what's the biggest

40:17 misperception about quote UN quote old people that you want

40:21 them to kind of unlearn what a great.

40:23 Question that we're obsolete, that we have nothing to offer

40:28 when the truth is that older people have a tremendous amount

40:31 to offer. But I do think that sometimes

40:34 younger people, they don't even listen because they figure,

40:37 well, what a what does she know? Like me and my mom, right?

40:40 But what does she know because she lived in a different time

40:43 And, and I guess I've never felt that way.

40:46 I think in my, in the book, I mentioned my grandfather who

40:49 lived to be 101 and I don't know anybody who accepted change

40:54 better than my grandfather. He was quite amazing about that.

40:58 And so I wanted to know, well, how did he do that?

41:01 And I wanted to know what he had learned and what he.

41:04 So I think I've always had that acceptance and appreciation of

41:10 older people. So I think younger people

41:13 sometimes just write us off without even bothering to

41:17 listen. And honestly, they're lost.

41:19 But that's, that's their choice. But I think they could learn a

41:24 lot. It's not all going to apply.

41:27 There's so many things that happened that that really don't

41:32 have any bearing anymore. Like one of the ones I think

41:36 about is, it used to be that you would think about when you

41:40 called somebody long distance because of the time you would

41:44 pay more or less. It doesn't matter anymore.

41:47 You can call them anytime you want and probably not costing

41:50 you anything 'cause you're doing it on a mobile phone.

41:53 So there are things that are no longer valid, but the basic

41:57 things really are valid. And those are, you know, how we

42:01 treat each other and how we treat ourselves.

42:05 So those things, I think, are things we can learn from older

42:10 people. They've had a lot of experience.

42:13 Yeah. And what about people who are

42:17 starting to feel the aging effect?

42:20 And I'm sure it's a struggle for many.

42:23 They start like blaming themselves or feeling like I'm

42:27 it's a down, it's downhill from here.

42:29 What would be some of your advice?

42:32 Yes. And there are people like that

42:34 and they're they're depressed actually because they're they're

42:38 assigning negativity to what's happening to them.

42:44 And I think the best thing you can do is say, what's the gift

42:48 in this for me? What, what can I learn from

42:51 this? How can I adjust 'cause I'm

42:54 certain things, I'm sorry, they're not going to get better.

42:57 One, like shocking one for me was I can't grip things like I

43:02 used to. I don't have a strong grip like

43:04 I used to. Well, that's important to me.

43:07 There are exercises I can do to work on my grip.

43:10 And but there's some things I, I think one that has really been a

43:16 shock to me is I used to think that and there is some truth

43:21 that as we get older, we just do the things we want to do.

43:24 I think that's a good thing. But what I didn't realize is we

43:28 also don't have the energy that we used to have.

43:32 That was a shock that we can't do things, not because we don't

43:36 want to, but because we can't. And that that has been kind of a

43:41 shock. But what do you do about it?

43:43 Well, you figure out, well, how do I get more energy?

43:46 Do I maybe need to take a nap in the afternoon and not feel bad

43:50 about it? For me, and I know this is sort

43:54 of a buzzword and everybody's tired of hearing about it, I

43:57 wasn't getting enough protein and my body was run down.

44:02 And now I force myself to eat more protein in various ways and

44:06 intake more protein and have seen dramatic results.

44:10 I just, I was eating less meat. I was less interested in it, and

44:15 I didn't realize that I was really cutting myself off from

44:18 my power source. So you can complain or you can

44:22 look for solutions, but complaining, as far as I can

44:26 tell, Karen has done absolutely no good.

44:31 Yeah, there's certain things I I don't believe in.

44:33 I don't believe in guilt, shit or worry.

44:37 I have yet to find any good in them.

44:41 They don't really work for me. And so I can go into more detail

44:46 about each of them and why. But the truth is I try to spend

44:51 my energy, of which I now have less, on the things that are

44:55 important to me and and the things that give me joy, make me

44:58 happy. Yeah, I.

44:59 Like that you pointed out, well, you don't have energy like

45:03 there's a problem, find a solution.

45:06 Right. Like you started doing more

45:09 exercise, having more protein. You've put it very, very nicely.

45:13 Guilt, worry and shame don't do anything.

45:17 Nothing. Yeah.

45:18 You can risk, you can manage risk, but instead of worrying, I

45:23 suggest the people around me who are worried all the time, like

45:27 assume they will happen. What are you going to do in

45:30 scenario A&B&C then? If they don't happen, fine.

45:35 If they do, you already have a plan.

45:38 I like that. That's a really good way to look

45:40 at it. And I in in the book, I do use

45:43 an example of my previous husband who died in 1991.

45:49 My, my husband, my father had pointed out to me he was quite a

45:53 bit older than I am. And my father said, Mary, do you

45:56 realize that you are going to be taking care of an old man?

46:00 Well, quite honestly, I hadn't even thought about it.

46:03 And then I started to think about it.

46:08 He died when he was 52, Karen. He never got to be an old man.

46:12 So if I had worried about that, what a waste.

46:17 Yeah. Energy and it would have helped

46:19 nobody. So I just think we have to keep

46:23 coming back to awareness and an understanding of well, if I care

46:28 about this, what can I do about it?

46:31 You know, and if the answer is nothing except, except, except

46:35 it, that's something. So it kind of does come back to

46:39 where our priorities are and what is important to us and

46:42 that's. Something that's applicable no

46:45 matter what age you are. True.

46:47 Yeah, and the more you. Practice it, the better you get

46:50 at it. Yeah, so for this last part, I

46:54 want to play something fun. Just some quick questions, quick

46:58 answers. OK.

46:59 What's your least favorite thing that old people tend to always

47:02 say besides the health thing? Oh.

47:05 Besides the organic Idaho You look so young.

47:09 I don't hear that much anymore, but I used to hear it a lot.

47:11 You look so young. You used to make me bad, but

47:14 not. Anymore, right?

47:16 Not anymore. I don't hear it anymore.

47:18 I'm I'm very short and small. I think that's why I used to

47:22 hear it so much but not anymore. What is?

47:26 Something that used to annoy you, but now you laugh at.

47:31 Oh oh, I guess physical clumsiness or falling down.

47:37 Like I used to be embarrassed and now I just laugh too.

47:42 If there is something that the younger generation is doing that

47:46 you actually embrace, what is it?

47:49 Probably. Technology.

47:51 Yeah, they're how comfortable they are.

47:54 Yes, and unquestioning. And maybe that's not always so

48:00 good. Yeah.

48:02 I think a lot of people, older people, just say I I'm just not

48:06 interested in technology and I am, I am interested because I

48:10 know it can do things for me. So that that's an easy one for

48:15 me to answer her, yeah. Like it makes it makes a lot of

48:18 difference. My mom is also she has been

48:20 pretty savvy and even if she stumbles in the beginning, I

48:25 guess that's partly me. Like I teach her how to fish

48:28 instead of fishing for her. So she like she's she's capable

48:32 of doing things that surprises me.

48:34 Nice. OK.

48:36 What's your favorite song? Oh my gosh.

48:41 OK, it's called Think and it's by James Brown, and you might

48:47 not. Do you know who James Brown even

48:48 is? If that's the original James

48:51 Brown that I do, it's. Called James Brown and there's

48:54 this wonderful song about it's called Think and it's sort of

48:59 funny but also very true about how we what we value and how we

49:05 value it so. That's another technology

49:10 advancement. We can search all any songs.

49:14 At any moment and lyrics. At your fingertips.

49:17 Lyrics at your fingertips and also the just the ability to

49:21 know a little bit about something and still track it

49:24 down even. If you don't know if you can

49:28 just describe it, you can. Yeah, the hardest.

49:32 Thing is spelling. So if you don't know how to

49:34 spell a word, how do you look it up?

49:39 You can. Well, that depends on how close

49:42 you are to be able to spell something that sounds like that.

49:46 Well, and the other thing is I'll turn to thesaurus and I'll

49:50 look for a word that's similar. And usually, yeah.

49:54 OK, next one for your book. What nobody tells you about

49:58 getting older. Who's or how old is the youngest

50:02 person who has read it? That's a great question.

50:06 I'm not sure I know that answer, but my very first book signing,

50:11 I had everybody wear a name tag and on it they were supposed to

50:16 put how old they felt and the person who felt the oldest said

50:19 112, person who felt the youngest said 12.

50:25 So I don't know, actually, the book is really selling well.

50:31 And what surprised me, this is not a quick answer, but what

50:34 surprised me is that the people who seem to appreciate it the

50:38 most are from about 35 to 45 or 50 and then 80 and up.

50:49 And the people in the middle, who I would have thought would

50:52 be very interested, I don't know if they're in denial mostly, but

50:56 most of them are not as interested as the younger people

51:00 who are starting to see these changes in their body and

51:02 they're just perplexed about what's going on.

51:05 And then the older people are saying, told ya.

51:10 Yeah. So they, they love it.

51:13 They laugh like crazy. Yeah.

51:15 I did too. Highly recommend this book.

51:17 I'm gonna leave information about Mary and the book and the

51:22 show notes 'cause I really enjoyed reading it.

51:24 I actually laughed out loud and I don't do that very often.

51:28 Like something that I read in the book, you said something

51:31 about laughter. And I was like, even when I was

51:33 little, I haven't been very goofy.

51:36 So compared to my sisters, definitely not goofy.

51:39 Tend to be on the serious side. So I don't laugh that often.

51:44 I do a lot now. Like, I do it a lot more than

51:47 when I was a teenager. I don't.

51:50 Yeah. So I will do that more.

51:54 Well, thank you very, very much for sharing your experience and

51:57 your stories with us. Mary and I really, really enjoy

52:01 the conversation, the insights, the wisdom.

52:03 And you have like this talking to you.

52:08 If anyone thinks old people are just old, like, what do you

52:12 know, this is going to change. Like, Mary is a good example of

52:17 how not all of them are like this and maybe not even that big

52:23 of a proportion. I don't know, like, based on the

52:26 number of people around me. Yeah.

52:29 Thank you. Thank you very much for talking

52:32 to me today and being at the show.

52:34 Mary. Well.

52:35 Thank you, Kirk. Thanks for listening to this

52:41 episode of Mind One. If you enjoyed the conversation,

52:44 don't forget to follow and share it with anyone who needs to hear

52:47 it. And let's keep the conversation

52:49 going. Connect with me on LinkedIn or

52:51 leave me a comment. Until next time, stay curious,

52:55 keep exploring, and let's continue to burn our minds and

52:58 discover what's possible.